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SSF4 AE 2012 Tier List Thread (OP last updated Feb 2013)

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  • ugo_2uugo_2u Joined: Posts: 2,343Registered
    Da Knut said:
    I think that DJ vs Yun, Sim and Fei is worse than 4-6

    And I think that DJ beats Gouken more than 6-4

    I still don't understand why DJ is only 5.5-4.5 against Gen.
    do you think that DJ has the clear advantage over Gen?
    ssf4ae v2012 tutorial archive http://ssf4tutorialvideos.blogspot.com/
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  • EmanuelbEmanuelb Joined: Posts: 1,255Registered
    Da Knut said:
    I think that DJ vs Yun, Sim and Fei is worse than 4-6

    And I think that DJ beats Gouken more than 6-4

    I still don't understand why DJ is only 5.5-4.5 against Gen.

    Then make your case, say how do you think the numbers should be changed, posts your arguments and we will talk about.

    DEE JAY:

    - vs Dhalsim:

    Snafoo, Playing to win and Da Knut all called it 4-6

    - Fei Long:

    I think Da knut called it 4-6, and no Fei mainer opposed.

    - Gen:

    Yeb - 5-5
    Da Knut: 6-4. His argument: "Gen has to find a way in and DJ does not. DJ gets his damage from Gen attempting to get in. Gen destroy DJ in footsies but luckily DJ's cr.fp is a good universal AA for both of Gen jump arcs"

    Dr H: "DJ doesn't have an advantage either, anti airing his short hop isn't that hard at all and Gen can even AA with cr.mk xx Hands from a distance for nice damage, U2 keeps his fireball game honest (can punish his fireball and anti air normals), Focus Back Dash is a good escape option against his offense. Another thing I like about this matchup is that although Gen's punishes aren't usually the best without super xx ultra, 1: He has character specific combos on DJ that does nice damage and builds meter, 2 DJ is very vulnerable to meaty cr.shorts, and Gen's damage output of cr.short confirms are among the best in game. "DJ doesn't need to find a way against Gen" Yeah, no. DJ better be on point with his zoning game."

    Hnic Mike: "that match is even. its about even in the neutral game with neither character having really strong answers to the others jump ins. deejay has the fireball, gen has the better buttons and 2 jump arcs. and both characters do what they want if they get on top of the other.
    deejay has to have some respect for ex dp, and gen has to guess the correct grounded OS. neither has real solutions to the others offensive oki tho.
    i dont really see why either would have an advantage
    if he mixes between max range crane jumps, and mantis empty jumps, he's going to get in. mp is really your go to button in this match anyway. it hits both jumps at all ranges, and its safer on whiff against the empty jumps.
    theres a sweet spot where near max range early crane jump fierce eats crouch fierce, and mostly every other button you have. it'll lose to far RH, or far FP, but the jump needs to be obvious for you to use those. crane fierce has a dead zone or some shit where even mp will get eaten sometimes. it does that to a bunch of AAs in the game
    but anyway, he mixes that with the empties and he's in without taking a bunch of damage. i think the harder part of the match is dj on offense running frame traps into hard KDs into BS."

    For what is worth, at Socal 2012 Viscant eliminated Kane.

    - Gouken: I'm curious what Amigoone think of this match up.

    - vs Yun: Breaker, what do you think of this match ?

    Da Knut and Breaker called it 4-6
    Kurokiba and Dafeetlee 5-5
    Hsien Chang - 5.5-4.5

    Viscant oppinion: "Having said that, my personal opinion his matches vs. Bison, Guile, Fei and Dhalsim are all considerably worse than 4-6. Those matches all waver between "ridiculous" and "unwinnable" depending on situation. Even though Dee Jay has been buffed from version to version his match vs. Guile has actually managed to get worse over time."



    SSF4 AE v. 2012 - Tier List (v.2013) - http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/2879/tierlist2013.png

    SSF4 AE v. 2013 - updated Buff List: http://www.freeuploadsite.com/do.php?id=3721
  • BlueberryBlueberry Joined: Posts: 270Registered

    I agree with Da Knut: Yun, Sim and Fei are REALLY bad matchups for DeeJay. I'll put Guile in there as well, all of these are almost unwinnable for DeeJay. 
    I think Guile is his worst matchup by the way, even worse than Sim or Fei. Guile has to play basic against DeeJay, just chuck booms and anti-air accordingly. 
  • cerberusfxcerberusfx Timekeeper Joined: Posts: 1,295Registered
    more......details!
    Power is nothing without skill
    R.I.P Joshua Colon (sksksksksk222)
    **Oh god images in signatures--not approving at all >_>!**
  • ZentsurugiZentsurugi Joined: Posts: 334Registered
    It's been a long time since I got to post anything in the forums. (Not that I posted much to begin with, but I would pop in from time to time.)  I want to start being more active and productive in the community.  I have access to SSF42012 again for PC.  Anyhow, what's new in the SF world?  I'm sure a lot has changed.  Did any tier placements change?
  • EmanuelbEmanuelb Joined: Posts: 1,255Registered
    Well, depends how were the tiers when you left. We finnished a tier list and uploaded it on the front page - you might wanna check it out. Cammy's the best, unblockables are all the rage nowadays, and there are a bunch of rummors about a possible update.
    SSF4 AE v. 2012 - Tier List (v.2013) - http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/2879/tierlist2013.png

    SSF4 AE v. 2013 - updated Buff List: http://www.freeuploadsite.com/do.php?id=3721
  • ZentsurugiZentsurugi Joined: Posts: 334Registered
    I remember you guys working on a tier list.  Cool that you all finished it.  Is it fairly accurate or does it still need work?  I saw the rumor of a possible update.  I have mixed feelings about it.  I wouldn't mind one since it keeps the game fresh.  However, there's that possibility of the balance being horrible again like it was when AE first came out.  In any case I'll check out the tier list and provide opinions, not that they'll hold any weight seeing as I haven't done anything bigger than local tournaments.
  • cerberusfxcerberusfx Timekeeper Joined: Posts: 1,295Registered
    imo I feel it isn't complete yet. Would be good if we could have more details write ups about the matchups
    Power is nothing without skill
    R.I.P Joshua Colon (sksksksksk222)
    **Oh god images in signatures--not approving at all >_>!**
  • ZentsurugiZentsurugi Joined: Posts: 334Registered
    Gotcha.  Once I re-familiarize myself with the game again I'll try to provide some matchup info as best I can.  
  • Da KnutDa Knut Joined: Posts: 1,149Registered
    DJ vs Fei Long feels worse than 4-6 because Fei dominates the ground and can push DJ to the corner with ease. Not only does Fei normals out shines DJ normals, but his normals stuffs DJ specials. Fei Long focus attack is really good and attempting to armor break it isnt a good idea
  • EmanuelbEmanuelb Joined: Posts: 1,255Registered
    edited March 2013
    So, do you think Dee Jay vs Fei should be changed to 3-7 ? Besides Dee Jay match ups that Da Knut brought up, I would also like to discuss 2 other matches:

    - Sagat vs Zangief

    - Guile vs Bison

    I don't main either character, but I'm really curious - do you guys think these matches are only 7-3 because from what I've seen so far, these 2 might be solid contenders for 8-2. so I would like to hear some oppinions from the mainers of these characters - how these matches are played, what do they think - do you think gief and Bison have real options in these matches ? Or is more - hope Sagat/guile screw things up. Because form what I've seen, I don't think Zangief/ Bison can win his matches unless their opponent makes mistakes.

    Sagat vs Zangief:   7-3 to 8-2 ? what do you guys say ? Emblemlord ? Machorhombus ? other Sagat/ zangief mainers ?

    - Veggey called the match 8-2.
    - UltraDavid: 7.5-2.5

    High level footage:

    Aquasilk vs S. Kelly:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=obLkcjTv9Do#!

    Aquasilk vs Weaksauce



    Snake Eyez vs S. Kelly



    the match starts at 37:36

    All matches finnished with a straight 2-0. I watched closelly Snake eyez vs Sanford - probabelly the best gief in the world  wasn't able to win 1 single round in a 2 out of 3 set. I wonder if Zangief has any legit options in this game, because I think this one might be a legit 8-2.

    Guile vs Bison: 7-3 to 8-2 ? M16, what do you think ? other guile/ bison players ?

    Happy Medicine called the match 8-2

    Slinkun's argument: "Bison can still make a good guess on a jump, empty jump, or do a delayed normal to trade. He can trade with sonic boom with a s.hk at the right ranges. He can EX psycho through a boom at safe range. He can bulldog a little better than most do to his walk speed. If he corners Guile, it's rape time until he escapes. A blocked lk scissors pushes Guile into the corner, a good bit, and while a reversal boom will beat everything out after, EX scissors WILL go through. Unfortunately, this can be baited and get hit by reversal U1.
    Don't get me wrong, the match really is straight booty for bison, but it was EMP Hiro who knocked me out of UFGT 8 just because he did all of the stuff listed above. Saying it's 8-2 with t.hawk / blanka is a bit defeatist. That match is 8-2 because blanka literally shuts down every single option that hawk has, and there really isn't much he can do about it other than get lucky or if Blanka falls asleep or tries to style. Bison CAN make openings against Guile, but it's very difficult.
    But yah... it is pretty bad. If bison reacts to an LP boom with devil reverse, he just trapped himself and is either going to get hit by the boom or an AA. If he headstomped instead, he gets airthrown. In either of those situations, guile can: LP boom > react to jump/stomp with air throw > land > dash > AA... and if the AA whiffs then bison got hit by the boom. If he goes to the air when Guile isn't doing anything, he gets air thrown. If he tries to focus through a boom, he eats double s.hp. If he tries to EX scissor through a boom, it will likely hit once and then the boom will hit him anyways. However, he CAN make good reads on jumps and CAN mix up his angles, and CAN mix up his jumping normals to beat out guile on the ground."

    The problem I see - I'm not sure if Bison jump ins might be considered a serious option in this match. I don't know much about this character, but I know he has a floaty jump, so I'm not sure if this poses a real threat for Guile. Honda also has to rely on kump ins in this match - but Honda has really good jump ins - ju MP has a great hitbox, does 90 dmg and on hit Honda gets a 300 dmg combo. jump Lp is also very good, so these are legit options in this match. But in Bison's case, I'm not sure how serious options are his jump ins - that's why I would like to hear some oppinions from the mainers of this character. 

    The footage:

    Dieminion vs Happy Medicine



    Nuckledu vs Happy Medicine



    Dieminion vs Shang Tsung



    ChrisG vs Hiro



    the match starts at 41:02

    One thing to note is ChrisG doesn't even main Guile, but he beat Hiro 2-0 nonetheless.

    Anyway, if you guys are not bored, I'm interested in hearing oppinions on these matches, how are they played, etc.


    SSF4 AE v. 2012 - Tier List (v.2013) - http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/2879/tierlist2013.png

    SSF4 AE v. 2013 - updated Buff List: http://www.freeuploadsite.com/do.php?id=3721
  • EternalEternal Joined: Posts: 1,954Registered
    edited March 2013
    Bison vs Guile? Def 3.5-7.5 or even 2-8 for Guile. One of the worst matchups in the game. Gief vs Sagat? I dunno I haven't seen it enough tbh but I think it would likely be tough for Gief. Tiger knee puts gief back to full screen potentially, Sagat has 1050 health / 1050 stun allowing for more mistakes than most other zoning based characters and can do a healthy chunk of damage up close potentially and has a good comeback factor that alot of zoners are missing.

    Sagat's s.HK is like Cody's on steroids. It hits twice, has 5F startup for first hit, does 120 damage, pushes gief out pretty far thanks to 2 hits, and builds 80 meter (40 on block) for Sagat and is a solid anti air against Gief's ideal jump angles and can hit Gief while crouching. Honestly, knowing how much trouble Cody's far HK is for Gief and that (while extremely good) is no where near as good as Sagats I'd say that one option alone makes the match in Sagat's favor, before you even take into consideration all of Sagat's other stuff.

    As I said though, I've not seen it a lot but the tools themselves lend it to being certainly a 7-3 for Gat if not a 7.5-2.5 as Ultradavid said.

    Looking at the current tier list I'd def propose these changes:

    Makoto vs Dan (Currently 5-5) to (4-6) this has been discussed a bunch and both sides often agreed that Dan was one of Makoto's worst matchups.
    Cammy vs Oni (Currently 4-6) to (5-5) you already said you'd do this, just listing it to be complete.
    Guile vs Bison (Currently 7-3) to (8-2)
    Sagat vs Zangief (Currently 7-3) to (7.5-2.5)
    Cammy vs Cody (Currently 6-4) to (7-3) This is IMHO top 10 worst matchups in the game. It relies far to heavily on Cammy making a mistake to allow Cody the comeback. The comeback factor is simply the only thing that keeps the match short of being as bad as Sagat vs Gief. I'd argue that with two top players where neither are dropping combos it is 7.5-2.5. I'll try and get some videos of this (preferable non-online)
    Sakura vs Cody (Currently 4-6) to (5-5) I think this was a mistake, I'm pretty sure 5-5 was the agreed upon number before. Cody has better pressure (outside of LK Tatsu loops) Sakura has better Oki and in general better buttons in both the air and ground (Other than Cody's c.LK/c.LP). Both have a ton of trouble with the others pressure but Sakura has a much easier time in neutral forcing Cody to use badstone to zone due to her superior pokes (c.MK/farMK/all of her stupidly good jumpins/c.HP anti air beats all of Cody's jump ins free) but if Cody DOES get Sakura pushed to the corner he has really good ways to keep her there.
    Cody vs M. Bison (Currently 5-5) to (5.5-4.5) I'd like to see some discussion on this. I feel like the matchup is slightly in Cody's favor. He is one of the few characters who has good answers to scissor kick pressure and also has a safe anti air answer to Headstomp that can't be easily punished via a devil's reverse bait (B.MP). Cody also has good OSes vs Bison's wakeup. Bison has some stupid stuff against Cody for sure (Bison's c.HK slide beats Cody's f.HK 100% of the time as Cody can't hit the crouching Bison and the slide is active for 12F which is plenty of time to catch Cody during the recovery of the move. FJ.MK Is aleady a good crossup made even better by Cody's wide hurtbox and lack of AA reversals. Bison has really A2A and Jumpins while Cody's a2a is ass AT BEST and his jump ins while having a ton of active frames also have a ton of startup)
    Dhalsim vs Cody (Currently 5-5) to (5.5-4.5) Until Cody gets meter for EX Zonk/Ruffian this is a solid 6-4 matchup or worse. Cody has no way to get around Yoga fire that Sim can't easily counter. Cody's slide will either lose to s.HP or trade 70 damage for 130 (s.HP + getting hit by Yoga fire) Cody's zonks are counter hit / lose to s.HP/c.HP/c.LP/s.LK stretch limbs from Sim. Cody can't alter his jump arc and his normals are not only slow but the large hurtboxes play into Sim's hands very well (Even fj.LK the hurtbox is entirely surrounding the hitbox) only fj.LP is viable to try and get around limbs. Frankly if it wasn't for the unblockable fj.HP that Cody has on Sim in the corner the match would probably be 6-4 IMO.



    Here is a good example of Cody vs Cammy. Watch how often the damage Sasaki gets against Sorenashi isn't because of a read, or a setup, or footsies. The majority of damage Sasaki is getting is from mistakes on Sorenashi's part. Not like "blocked a cross up the wrong way" or "didn't tech a throw" kind of things that aren't truely "mistakes" that came about from bad play. Stuff like dropped combos, misspaced footsies, forgetting to FADC an unsafe spiral arrow on the first hit, doing spiral arrow after a blocked c.MK when you also had no meter for an FADC. Getting fj.MK instead of a Cannon Strike in the corner. Random half screen away doing a cannon spike. When Sorenashi is keeping it simple and landing all his links though the match becomes extremely one sided with Sasaki basically unable to do anything except the occasional trade.



    Here is Poongko playing Cammy whom he doesn't usually play. He keeps it simple and for the most part manages to run a train on L Yoppy until Poongko starts doing reckless stuff like random full screen spin knuckle, his attempt at an overly fancy combo after the stun (which he drops), miss timing his Cannon Strike inputs, ect. And once again over half of Cody's damage came from punishing mistakes rather than reads/footsies/setups, that means no mistakes (or less mistakes) and Cody has less opportunities to come back. Poongko basically threw away the third round.



    I think this is a great example of how comeback factor is the main thing keeping this matchup from being straight up 7.5-2.5 two rounds of mostly Cammy just beating the crap out of Cody. His comeback factor in the first round allows a lucky f.HK catching Cammy dashing to lead to evening up the health before Cammy immediately turns it back around (Cody could have taken the round when Cammy dropped her Spiral Arrow but he didn't capitalize)

    It's surprisingly difficult to find very many Cammy vs Cody match videos from AE2012. Even more so for recent ones now that Cammy has picked up in terms of popularity over the last like 5-6months.
    Post edited by Eternal on
  • EmanuelbEmanuelb Joined: Posts: 1,255Registered
    Ok, time for an update for the tier list:

    The Updated Tier List (v.2013): http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/2879/tierlist2013.png

    This is the latest version with the latest changes. Not much different overall. Check v.2013 to be sure you have the latest version.
    I will check Eternal's proposed changes and provide more infos for those matches.
    SSF4 AE v. 2012 - Tier List (v.2013) - http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/2879/tierlist2013.png

    SSF4 AE v. 2013 - updated Buff List: http://www.freeuploadsite.com/do.php?id=3721
  • OilforthewinOilforthewin Joined: Posts: 101Registered
    Seeing Oni so low on the tier list is so interesting, why is he so low on the list? I found a longer set with Cody vs Cammy, but finding something better isn´t easy.
    Hakan wins a match= His opponent didn´t know the matchup.(Nice excuse btw).
    Hakan loses a match = He lost, because he is bottom tier.
    (This is what some people would say, if one of those happens)

    Steam profile:
    http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198066484611

  • EternalEternal Joined: Posts: 1,954Registered
    I found that match too Oil, it's not AE 2012 it's AE that is why I didn't post it.
  • OilforthewinOilforthewin Joined: Posts: 101Registered
    edited March 2013
    At the beginning of the video, it clearly says Ver.2012 on the bottom of the video. Direct unter the SSF4 AE emblem it states that it is the 2012 version.(Around the 00:01 mark). The uploader forgot to mention that they used AE2012(typical for Blackvegeta at this time).
    Oh btw that miss at 00:45 looks so cruel.
    Hakan wins a match= His opponent didn´t know the matchup.(Nice excuse btw).
    Hakan loses a match = He lost, because he is bottom tier.
    (This is what some people would say, if one of those happens)

    Steam profile:
    http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198066484611

  • EternalEternal Joined: Posts: 1,954Registered
    Ah my bad then. thanks for posting it!
  • ZentsurugiZentsurugi Joined: Posts: 334Registered
    Dudley, why you suck so bad.
  • ShineboxShinebox Joined: Posts: 844Registered
    I thought Akuma and Ryu was finally established as 5-5
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