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2013 UMVC3 SRK Tier List/Theory Discussion. KBeast plink dash now on tumblr (first post)

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  • DankeDanke Superior Tech. Joined: Posts: 989Registered
    Iron Man's forward ground dash is not actually better than anyones, I guess Arthur doesn't have one but that would be it.
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  • phantasyphantasy shl kick for evo2013 Joined: Posts: 4,185Registered
    ..hsien...ko...???
    srk forum functionality is still a problem ~
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  • just5moreminutesjust5moreminutes Joined: Posts: 1,147Registered
    If Akuma had better normals and got Vanilla Tatsu back, he's be top 3.
    If everything Dorm had was 4 frames faster and he had an invincible level 1, he would be top 1.
    Please don't get into "what if" situations here. We have like 5 other threads for that. Plus, every time I talk about buffs...
    image
  • p0tat0 5aladp0tat0 5alad I like orange. Joined: Posts: 277Registered
    Do i need to make a video showing how fast Thor can be so that people stop spreading their uninformed opinions about his mobility options? he is not magneto but come on >_> people are starting to get annoying with that
    Do it do it do it do it do it do it do it

    I bet you won't.
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  • TenguEggTenguEgg Joined: Posts: 1,134Registered
    I think Morrigans severe lack of strong incoming mixups will keep her out of the top 3, having strong incoming mixups that lead into death stops a lot of the BS in this game, its the one tool that morrigan is missing.
  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Quantum Theorist. Liquid Dubstep Energy Joined: Posts: 29,224Registered
    edited March 2013
    TenguEgg said:
    I think Morrigans severe lack of strong incoming mixups will keep her out of the top 3, having strong incoming mixups that lead into death stops a lot of the BS in this game, its the one tool that morrigan is missing.


    She has strong incoming as long as astral vision is still on any way.  Soul fist + missiles into anti pushblock BS.  Probably gonna get hit.    You can always just raw tag in another character on your team to create better incoming mix up if you absolutely must.
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  • ClimhazzardousClimhazzardous I am home Countess! Joined: Posts: 256Registered
    Chrisis said:
    IMO Zero with any assist against Morrigan/Jam Session is at least 6-4 Morrigan's favor.

    I don't think Zero is anywhere near as good as she is.
    Lmfaoooooo

    Zero/Jam will utterly murder morrigan without missiles...hell its hard enough with them and you saying she has an advantage?  you can't be serious.
  • ThatJollyOlBastidThatJollyOlBastid Non-stop Climax! Joined: Posts: 16,621Registered
    phantasy said:
    ..hsien...ko...???
    Who?
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  • p0tat0 5aladp0tat0 5alad I like orange. Joined: Posts: 277Registered
    If you can set up a good guard break setups on incoming then your character is fine.
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  • ChrisisChrisis Optimized Scumbag Joined: Posts: 5,202Registered
    edited March 2013
    Chrisis said:
    IMO Zero with any assist against Morrigan/Jam Session is at least 6-4 Morrigan's favor.

    I don't think Zero is anywhere near as good as she is.
    Maybe not against her, but against everyone else? Zero's got a 50/50 chance of killing your team with Jam Session.  I'd say that secures his spot as best character.
    Morrigan also has a 33/33/33 for killing each of your incoming characters off of Jam Session, hers is just harder to execute.

    And Zero's is way more than a 50/50 if he's doing good mix ups since it's  50/50--50/50--25/25/25/25

    More importantly this is a flawed manner of thinking. Firebrand has a better chance than Zero of killing a whole team if he executes correctly and has the right team, however he requires more risk to set up those situations than Zero. The reason I think Morrigan and Viper are better than Zero is how good they are at being able to always negate their own risk since the way their tools are designed if you realize you made a mistake in time you can fix it guarenteed, that's not something even Zero can say, especially against characters who have stable ways to deal with buster.
    Post edited by Chrisis on
    "Viper has no bad matchups, only bad players." -RobIsntDrunk
  • ChrisisChrisis Optimized Scumbag Joined: Posts: 5,202Registered
    If Chris Redfield had a grounded overhead and a command grab, he would be just outside top 10. A less mobile Spencer.
    Incendiary grenade is a better defensive tool than bionic arm. Chris is not just a less mobile Spencer.
    "Viper has no bad matchups, only bad players." -RobIsntDrunk
  • ChrisisChrisis Optimized Scumbag Joined: Posts: 5,202Registered
    Danke said:
    Iron Man's forward ground dash is not actually better than anyones, I guess Arthur doesn't have one but that would be it.
    I agree, people confuse 'moving farther than Thor's' with being better. Now that I've been playing more IM on subteams I really feel that hatred for his ground dash. At least his normals are better than Thor's in every useful way.
    "Viper has no bad matchups, only bad players." -RobIsntDrunk
  • KJunkKJunk Joined: Posts: 2,938Registered
    Things I don't like about Chris:
    • Terrible mobility
    • Bad normals (cr.M and s.S are what he has)
    • Big problems vs characters who approach or control from the air, like Zero, Morrigan, Magneto, Doom.
    • Bad mix-ups on incoming characters

    Things I like about Chris:
    • Prone stance
    • Suck it
    • Grenades are legit good, especially against ham characters that like to be grounded.
    • He does have a decent chip game and a decent full screen conversion shots-> combo game

    But those cool things don't make up for the problems.  When you see a Chris winning, it's because he's better than his opponents, or they are also playing bad characters or they don't know the match-up.
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  • ChrisisChrisis Optimized Scumbag Joined: Posts: 5,202Registered
    Cee Dizzy said:
    To answer Chrisis question, I don't put Morrigan top three because I don't think she is that great of a character. She's definitely a good character but I feel as though there are better characters in the game. I play alot of Morridoom's in Michigan because they all think they can do it too. But then I put a hot ass 13 inch shoe in their ass and wonder how could I have won with Ironfist when they have the best shell in the game.

    Morrigan/Doom or Morrigan in general is a technical beast. Not everybody could pick that team up and expect to win just by throwing fireballs and mashing on the assist button. There is alot of shit to learn with that shell and the patterns have to be perfected. Once people's movement gets better and they learn how to approach it and know when to attack, its gonna be much much easier to fight against. Take Summer Jam for example, Yipes' movement was on another level. He was navigating through fireballs, killing fireballs with his assists and jam session and crystal. Dude was going in! I think people need to look at that video for reference on how to fight Morrigan/Doom honestly. I know its tough because you have to worry about the fuzzies with missiles and the chip from the fireballs, but its totally not fullproof. There are plenty of ways to fight it. People just gotta get their movement up.

    If I remember correctly, people use to think that Spiral/Sentinel was the truth and that nobody could stop it in Marvel 2 (I wanna say Duc started picking it and he started taking all types of tournaments and was the best on the west coast with it), but then people stepped their movement up and then lo and behold, ever since 2005 (Duc won it), it wasn't very relevant anymore. Just like in Ultimate. Chris G picks up Morridoom and goes to almost every major and takes it within the first year or so of the game. History is starting to repeat itself.

    Thats just how I see it.
    Spiral Sentinel is also entirely bullshit, if you play against a good player using those 2 you will still have a hard time. Remember, Yipes lost to Duc when they had to play at EVO though that was more match up knowledge than anything else IMO.

    Spiral Sentinel isn't the best, but it's still very good, a more comparable situation would be Morri/Session is like Sentinel Commando, you have stable ways of keeping characters from playing the game they want to play and converting situations where you're winning into situations that have already been won. Morrigan like Sentinel has the ability to not have the intended recovery on her moves.

    Even though I don't think Spiral is at all free (May be me being biased as the person I learned Marvel from played Spiral and I've been bodied countless times) I think that there are a lot of places where that analogy is inaccurate to what Morrigan is able to do. Morrigan is the second lowest risk character in a game where everyone has exceptionally high rewards. I think aside from Viper she's most definitely the best.

    "Viper has no bad matchups, only bad players." -RobIsntDrunk
  • ChrisisChrisis Optimized Scumbag Joined: Posts: 5,202Registered
    Chrisis said:
    IMO Zero with any assist against Morrigan/Jam Session is at least 6-4 Morrigan's favor.

    I don't think Zero is anywhere near as good as she is.
    Lmfaoooooo

    Zero/Jam will utterly murder morrigan without missiles...hell its hard enough with them and you saying she has an advantage?  you can't be serious.
    I'm entirely serious. Zero only has the illusion of safety and Morrigan is one of the characters who can expose that pretty well. With Astral on the match is really bad for Zero, without Astral on it's pretty miserable.

    I used to rank him as one of the few characters who I felt did pretty well against Morrigan, the more I see Morrigan's options against him the less I think he's good against her. Horizontal exceptionally low commitment air control is something that characters with good movement in this game don't have, except for Morrigan and that's a problem with how Zero moves, how he shoots, and is just a problem in general. Especially since the fact that both characters can kill each other gaugeless and it's easier for a safe Morrigan to get the initial hit. Shadow servant actually is a very big problem too, it means you can't do a lot of options that are normally very safe for Zero in a similar way to how shockwave prevents them.
    "Viper has no bad matchups, only bad players." -RobIsntDrunk
  • leafcolonelleafcolonel Apprentice of Magnetism Joined: Posts: 1,583Registered

    Viper is the best character in the game without meter. Morrigan and Vergil are far stronger and more oppressive than her if they have meter though. Spiral Swords + Astral Vision >>> Viper's EX moves. Vergil is the best character in the game with meter, and I'd love to see an argument against that. 

    Zero comes fourth, Magneto comes in 5th just for the strength of his mobility and zoning/anti-zoning tools. 

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  • KeranataKeranata Joined: Posts: 617Registered
    edited March 2013
    Jill is easily a top 15 character, she's just either the hardest or second hardest character to master after C.Viper.  No one will believe me now, but soon...soon...

    Its a shame because literally every single Jill player on SRK is trash but one person, and chances are it's not you.
    Even when I say nothing it's a positive use of negative space
  • ChrisisChrisis Optimized Scumbag Joined: Posts: 5,202Registered
    tick_tock said:
    Serpentus has single handedly run this thread into the ground.  We get it. You like thor.  Give your opinion and fucking move on.  Incessant repetition isn't going to change anyone's opinion.  You don't need to spam the thread with it.

    If I were a mod here I'd honestly ban him because he's making this shit unbearable.  
    I disagree with Serp on some things and agree on others. He is saying something which is testable if you just go to the lab. Thor actually does have some really good movement tools that people seem to not understand based on what they say he can't do.
    "Viper has no bad matchups, only bad players." -RobIsntDrunk
  • RokmodeRokmode FOLLOW MY LEAD! Joined: Posts: 5,814Registered
    I'm surprised drew puts jill so low
    I can't exactly fathom ryu being an entire tier higher than jill
    it's questionable to say the least
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  • OuroborusOuroborus plays 3s just to troll Joined: Posts: 5,722Registered

    Viper is the best character in the game without meter. Morrigan and Vergil are far stronger and more oppressive than her if they have meter though. Spiral Swords + Astral Vision >>> Viper's EX moves. Vergil is the best character in the game with meter, and I'd love to see an argument against that. 

    Zero comes fourth, Magneto comes in 5th just for the strength of his mobility and zoning/anti-zoning tools. 

    viper is much less scarier without meter. no ex seismos/thunder knuckle to get out of pressure and make things safe makes it easier for the opponent to just maul her.

    magneto is the best character without meter.
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  • KeranataKeranata Joined: Posts: 617Registered
    Chrisis said:
    Chrisis said:
    IMO Zero with any assist against Morrigan/Jam Session is at least 6-4 Morrigan's favor.

    I don't think Zero is anywhere near as good as she is.
    Lmfaoooooo

    Zero/Jam will utterly murder morrigan without missiles...hell its hard enough with them and you saying she has an advantage?  you can't be serious.
    I'm entirely serious. Zero only has the illusion of safety and Morrigan is one of the characters who can expose that pretty well. With Astral on the match is really bad for Zero, without Astral on it's pretty miserable.

    I used to rank him as one of the few characters who I felt did pretty well against Morrigan, the more I see Morrigan's options against him the less I think he's good against her. Horizontal exceptionally low commitment air control is something that characters with good movement in this game don't have, except for Morrigan and that's a problem with how Zero moves, how he shoots, and is just a problem in general. Especially since the fact that both characters can kill each other gaugeless and it's easier for a safe Morrigan to get the initial hit. Shadow servant actually is a very big problem too, it means you can't do a lot of options that are normally very safe for Zero in a similar way to how shockwave prevents them.
    I feel like you significantly underrate Zero's options.  As long as he has meter to go into Sougemmu the matchup is in his favor with the right assists for the matchup, even if Morrigan is in AV.  Without meter he can stay at the top of the screen using fake dive kicks which are a very safe option that both kill your air momentum and allow you to block after a super short delay, although if she has meter to AV and he doesn't have meter the matchup is her favor.  I don't have the time to do a full write up on all the reasons why I like that matchup for Zero, maybe one day we'll both be in the same geographical region and can play sometime.
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  • AceKillahAceKillah Later... Joined: Posts: 14,829Registered
    @SamuelLJackson

    shit I mean


    Jill's pretty coo
    This site sucks.


  • NonSexualRiceNonSexualRice HOW CAN MAN TROLL TAG FOUR TIME!?! Joined: Posts: 2,481Registered
    Keranata said:
    Jill is easily a top 15 character, she's just either the hardest or second hardest character to master after C.Viper.  No one will believe me now, but soon...soon...

    Its a shame because literally every single Jill player on SRK is trash but one person, and chances are it's not you.
    Jill is not hard to use.  


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  • WorstPlayerWorstPlayer Calm Yourself Joined: Posts: 1,662Registered
    If you block jills somersault can yo hit her/throw afterwards reliably?
  • ClimhazzardousClimhazzardous I am home Countess! Joined: Posts: 256Registered
    Chrisis said:
    Chrisis said:
    IMO Zero with any assist against Morrigan/Jam Session is at least 6-4 Morrigan's favor.

    I don't think Zero is anywhere near as good as she is.
    Lmfaoooooo

    Zero/Jam will utterly murder morrigan without missiles...hell its hard enough with them and you saying she has an advantage?  you can't be serious.
    I'm entirely serious. Zero only has the illusion of safety and Morrigan is one of the characters who can expose that pretty well. With Astral on the match is really bad for Zero, without Astral on it's pretty miserable.

    I used to rank him as one of the few characters who I felt did pretty well against Morrigan, the more I see Morrigan's options against him the less I think he's good against her. Horizontal exceptionally low commitment air control is something that characters with good movement in this game don't have, except for Morrigan and that's a problem with how Zero moves, how he shoots, and is just a problem in general. Especially since the fact that both characters can kill each other gaugeless and it's easier for a safe Morrigan to get the initial hit. Shadow servant actually is a very big problem too, it means you can't do a lot of options that are normally very safe for Zero in a similar way to how shockwave prevents them.
    Naw he gets any near her with Jam Session and shes food.  I play a pretty competent morridoom regularly and the matchup seems even with missiles. if he didn't have that it would be curtains.  I'm curious in what the fuck morrigan can do to kill anyone without meter other than that infinite that no one is able to reliably do yet.  If she is using shadow servant then she isn't using astral which is fine iwth me.  Also if we are talkign about point play I'll take Zero with one bar over morrigan with one every time.
  • Cee DizzyCee Dizzy Bro, do you even dive? Joined: Posts: 3,012Registered
    Chrisis said:
    Cee Dizzy said:
    To answer Chrisis question, I don't put Morrigan top three because I don't think she is that great of a character. She's definitely a good character but I feel as though there are better characters in the game. I play alot of Morridoom's in Michigan because they all think they can do it too. But then I put a hot ass 13 inch shoe in their ass and wonder how could I have won with Ironfist when they have the best shell in the game.

    Morrigan/Doom or Morrigan in general is a technical beast. Not everybody could pick that team up and expect to win just by throwing fireballs and mashing on the assist button. There is alot of shit to learn with that shell and the patterns have to be perfected. Once people's movement gets better and they learn how to approach it and know when to attack, its gonna be much much easier to fight against. Take Summer Jam for example, Yipes' movement was on another level. He was navigating through fireballs, killing fireballs with his assists and jam session and crystal. Dude was going in! I think people need to look at that video for reference on how to fight Morrigan/Doom honestly. I know its tough because you have to worry about the fuzzies with missiles and the chip from the fireballs, but its totally not fullproof. There are plenty of ways to fight it. People just gotta get their movement up.

    If I remember correctly, people use to think that Spiral/Sentinel was the truth and that nobody could stop it in Marvel 2 (I wanna say Duc started picking it and he started taking all types of tournaments and was the best on the west coast with it), but then people stepped their movement up and then lo and behold, ever since 2005 (Duc won it), it wasn't very relevant anymore. Just like in Ultimate. Chris G picks up Morridoom and goes to almost every major and takes it within the first year or so of the game. History is starting to repeat itself.

    Thats just how I see it.
    Spiral Sentinel is also entirely bullshit, if you play against a good player using those 2 you will still have a hard time. Remember, Yipes lost to Duc when they had to play at EVO though that was more match up knowledge than anything else IMO.

    Spiral Sentinel isn't the best, but it's still very good, a more comparable situation would be Morri/Session is like Sentinel Commando, you have stable ways of keeping characters from playing the game they want to play and converting situations where you're winning into situations that have already been won. Morrigan like Sentinel has the ability to not have the intended recovery on her moves.

    Even though I don't think Spiral is at all free (May be me being biased as the person I learned Marvel from played Spiral and I've been bodied countless times) I think that there are a lot of places where that analogy is inaccurate to what Morrigan is able to do. Morrigan is the second lowest risk character in a game where everyone has exceptionally high rewards. I think aside from Viper she's most definitely the best.

    Ironically, that EVO you talked about that Yipes lost to Duc, that was 2005, the last year that Spiral/Sent won anything worth anything. The only reason Duc was able to win though was because Yipes beat Justin and Justin was sent to loser's earlier than that (I forgot who sent him, but Justin got 4th that year). I don't even think he played Duc at all that tournament. Anyway, thats not important.

    Spiral/Sentinel is bullshit. I didn't say it wasn't bullshit. But that did not make Spiral the best character in the game in the long run. She was number 6, if not number 7 in the game (depends what you consider Cyclops). Once Magneto started surfacing and players started to get their movement good, she was pringles. I see Morrigan like that in the future, especially with people not being able to block during an airdash and her ground dash being an airdash, people gonna want to take to the skies and try to run and end up getting chased down, grabbed, or get caught not blocking and end up getting dead because this is Marvel 3.

    Saying that she is one of the lowest risk characters in the game is also hard to see, especially when she can't block, or cancel her dash with a block. Every time she takes to the skies, she takes a risk. Every time she moves other than regular jumping and walking, she can get killed. What you gonna do, wait till missiles make me block and then move around? That will get you bodied.

    Morrigan players that I play are bad to garbage though. Our best Morrigan player don't even play the game like that lol. So maybe I don't see it right. But right now, I feel like the only reason Morrigan is even being discussed as a top tier is because the best UMVC3 player in the world plays her and is winning with her. Nobody else is doing work with her. I guess you can say J Rosa but dude is so hit or miss its not even funny.


    If you are beating morridoom with Iron Fist that player is absolute cheeks my friend.  
    I totally agree. But it proves my point though that you can't pick up Morridoom and think you gonna win just by throwing some fists around and blasting that missiles assist. In fact, I guarantee you that if I snap out and/or kill Doom, I will totally dismantle 90% of the Morridoom players because they just don't know what the fuck to do.

    And I still think that once movement is mastered and once people learn patience, people will be able to fight that shit.
  • MysticRayMysticRay Mashes Dive Kick Until It Works. Joined: Posts: 4,692Registered
    What characters are anti-morrigan?

    Skrull, Vergil,,,,?
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