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Advanced A2 Discussion

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Comments

  • Unknown Joined:
    Originally posted by Gunter


    No. All CC's should start with a LOW HIT. Guy and Zangief have extremely damaging CCs starting with c.forward.

    you wouldn't mind posting that Guy CC would you? Or is it just the Bushin Elbow xn -> Hurricane Kick as someone else posted
  • StrikeStrike Joined: Posts: 78Registered
    Rose's fireball CC only does insane damage if your Soul Spark is powered up (like 6-8 absorbs). No one with a brain will allow her to absorb that many. After at most 2 absorbs, most people stop when they see they've just given her a free level. Her repeated Soul Spirals is the more practical combo.
  • js2756js2756 Joined: Posts: 169Registered
    Still not a bad thing to have in her repetoire if fighting someone who is a little too fireball happy.

    Not like she really needs it, all she needs is crouching strong :p
  • Unknown Joined:
    Hey Gunter, I understand your something of a Zangief expert, so here's a question for ya.

    Are Zangief's ticks in this game as effective as they seem? I've used various ticks on various people over the years and they said they couldn't jump out of it. I don't know if thats true, but they seem very effective. On that note, do you think that using CCs with him is worth it over ticking the FAB, or the FAB in general?
  • Unknown Joined:
    Originally posted by RadicalEdward
    Hey Gunter, I understand your something of a Zangief expert, so here's a question for ya.

    Are Zangief's ticks in this game as effective as they seem? I've used various ticks on various people over the years and they said they couldn't jump out of it. I don't know if thats true, but they seem very effective. On that note, do you think that using CCs with him is worth it over ticking the FAB, or the FAB in general?

    I wouldn't call myself an expert... I just stole all my stuff from Chensor, Sirlin, and various Gief players in Japan. :cool:

    But as far as ticks with him go... forward knees into SPD is extremely good. It is WAY too good. A2 was the last version of SF where he could tick with such success.

    And Gief's meter should be used for CCs 95% of the time. Even at level 1, ppl can't block low if they were standing when you activated. Gief has the longest non-slide c.roundhouse in the game (maybe tied with Rose?), and comboing into Green Hands from that leads to BIG damage. I never really tick into FABs. I like to empty jump and land with FABs once in a while, as it'll grab any poke that they tried to stick out. I'll use FABs maybe 1% of the time I'm playing him. The other 4% is for ACs. His ACs are really really good. You just have to know when to use which one (although I tend to lean towards his Kick AC in more situations...).
  • Lv.32 Z-Ism RoseLv.32 Z-Ism Rose Soul Spark! Joined: Posts: 342Registered
    What is the damage formula for a good CC in A2? Is it the highest amount of hits, or the special moves, or what? What makes a good CC?
    SFA3: V-Cammy, A-Rose, A-Zangief (pad)
    SF3-3S: Hugo (SA1) stick, Yang (SA2) pad, Ryu (SA1)

    Pad>Sticks :lol:
  • Unknown Joined:
    Just some little tips:

    Don't be afraid to try anti-air CCs, they get crazy damage too. EX: Ken CC (d)strong, jab DP xN, hp DP.

    Use CCs to get out of ticks (Gief)

    Don't be afraid to throw with Sakura, it's great. Not the throw itself, but because it leads to perfect crossup opportunity.

    If you get caught Standing (and they CC), at least *TRY* to counter with a special or CC. I've seen too many people just eat the CC without even trying to stop it. Even if you get blow-back. It's hard, but why not right?

    Oh yeah, what's the deal with Bison? He seems soo shitty. Alpha Fat Bison = bleh
  • Unknown Joined:
    Originally posted by Mummy-B


    you wouldn't mind posting that Guy CC would you? Or is it just the Bushin Elbow xn -> Hurricane Kick as someone else posted

    c.rh -> hurrican kick works too, main one i use lol...
  • Unknown Joined:
    More random questions on CCs:

    1.) Does invincibility play any role in seting up a CC? I've tried blowing through fireballs with it and have just ended up getting hit as I ran through it. Is it worth the effort?

    2.) Did anyone check out NKI volume 6? That is some crazy shit. Is that what the tournament CCs look like?

    3.) If you can't block in reaction to a CC, can you CC in reaction to a CC? It seems like its possible, but I've not tried it yet.
  • Unknown Joined:
    Originally posted by RadicalEdward
    More random questions on CCs:

    1.) Does invincibility play any role in seting up a CC? I've tried blowing through fireballs with it and have just ended up getting hit as I ran through it. Is it worth the effort?

    2.) Did anyone check out NKI volume 6? That is some crazy shit. Is that what the tournament CCs look like?

    3.) If you can't block in reaction to a CC, can you CC in reaction to a CC? It seems like its possible, but I've not tried it yet.


    The more meter you have, the longer your invincibility lasts... so in general, you want to CC through FBs at level 2 or higher. I like doing it at 2 and a half. Also, the width of the character plays a huge role. In my entire life, I've only gone through a fB once with Gief, but Guy can probably go through at level 1.

    Also, counter CCs are what makes CCs tolerable. Anyone who says "if you stand near them, you die" doesn't know how to play A2 properly. The customer is NOT always right. The SECOND customer is USUALLY right. However (having worked in customer service I know this for a fact), you're always better off keeping customers away. In A2, you do this by constantly pressuring with c.strong and c.forward. A2 has the best footsies of any SF, which is why I love it so much. :D


    Oh yeah... I can't believe I'm saying this, but GO GIANTS!!!!
  • Unknown Joined:
    Originally posted by RadicalEdward
    More random questions on CCs:

    1.) Does invincibility play any role in seting up a CC? I've tried blowing through fireballs with it and have just ended up getting hit as I ran through it. Is it worth the effort?

    2.) Did anyone check out NKI volume 6? That is some crazy shit. Is that what the tournament CCs look like?

    3.) If you can't block in reaction to a CC, can you CC in reaction to a CC? It seems like its possible, but I've not tried it yet.

    where did you get the NKI volume???

    im outi

    Roberth
  • Unknown Joined:
    This was already posted.

    Its at http://www.gamecombos.com. Down a bit on the main page.
  • Unknown Joined:
    I think the tier ranking in this game changes for the upgraded Zero 2 Alpha version. Mainly, Chun-Li is slightly weakened (can't cancel from FK) and the abused Zero/Alpha counter now uses 1.5 levels (i.e. half of max) which I think is a lot better.

    There has been no mention of Sodom, who I think is a very highly rated character in this game. His whiff k->720k is the most powerful anti-air in the game (albeit only over certain distances) and he clearly owns Zangief because of it. Vs. Ken's zero-counter, he can 720k back even though he gets HIT by the counter (must be on the ground of course). He ticks very well and his c.SP and c.FP has very good range and priority. His counter has very long range and his slide is excellent as well.

    Personally, I like Guy, but he's rather weak when playing against turtlers. Relies on counter-attacks, which means the opponent has to attack in the first place.
  • Unknown Joined:
    I challenge ANY Sodom to try to own my Gief in A2 "because of" anti-air 720.

    Can't be done. Gief wins the match, hands down.
  • Unknown Joined:
    Originally posted by GuyZero
    I think the tier ranking in this game changes for the upgraded Zero 2 Alpha version. Mainly, Chun-Li is slightly weakened (can't cancel from FK) and the abused Zero/Alpha counter now uses 1.5 levels (i.e. half of max) which I think is a lot better.

    There has been no mention of Sodom, who I think is a very highly rated character in this game. His whiff k->720k is the most powerful anti-air in the game (albeit only over certain distances) and he clearly owns Zangief because of it. Vs. Ken's zero-counter, he can 720k back even though he gets HIT by the counter (must be on the ground of course). He ticks very well and his c.SP and c.FP has very good range and priority. His counter has very long range and his slide is excellent as well.

    Personally, I like Guy, but he's rather weak when playing against turtlers. Relies on counter-attacks, which means the opponent has to attack in the first place.

    personally i dont think guy has problems with turtlers...his footies are pritty good, and his c. mk is so good in a2, you can cancel into anything...

    actually IMO turtlers die to guy because guy is suited to rushdown...but hey thats just me...

    im outi

    Roberth
  • ShinRyuXShinRyuX FBC Member Joined: Posts: 133Registered
    Originally posted by Gunter
    I challenge ANY Sodom to try to own my Gief in A2 "because of" anti-air 720.

    Can't be done. Gief wins the match, hands down.

    Actually....I think Sodom has a real good advantage against Gief simply because he blocks sodom's strong scrape even while crouching. Essentially this pins Gief to the grond and he can't do much about this except lariat at the right time. And Gief has trouble escaping sodom's 720 super because of his size and lack of speed. If gief jumps in, all sodom has to do is jump back roundhouse. Most expert sodom players will tell you this. I think sodom is favored in this matchup IMO.
  • AdverseSolutionsAdverseSolutions Joined: Posts: 1,108Registered
    Can someone tell me how Charlie can beat Akuma? Akuma's j.MP or maybe it's j. FP owns my shell kick, jab seems like it wouldn't work. Air fireball makes it hard for me to advance.

    -Sk!
  • ShinRyuXShinRyuX FBC Member Joined: Posts: 133Registered
    as for akuma's air fireball, try jumping straight up and hitting akuma with forward or fierce. you should be able to s. shell his jump in fierce. if you want to do more damage, try doing cc that goes something like s. strong, repeated short s. shells. it does good damage. you can also custom through his air fireball(also ground fireball if you have at least lv. 2). charlie has lots of anti airs like standing strong, standing forward, standing roundhouse, or jump up fierce. if you try to punch alpha counter with charlie, make sure the jump in isn't really deep. otherwise, the alpha counter will whiff. i like to use standing forwards and roundhouse as anti air. and another thing, watch out for smart opponent who like to jump in custom. they will try to mistime their jump to tempt into s. shell so they can custom through and hurt you. if you smell a custom, let them waste their whole meter.

    against shotos, just sit back and throw sonic booms all day and try to hit them with sonic break super when they fireball . if they do close fireball, just block and alpha counter it to push them back. if you manage to kick ac, always follow up with jump forward cross up into a combo/throw attempt. sometimes if you see a fireball coming from long range, jump in with roundhouse. it has a long reach....charlie loses when either he starts jumping carelessly or if you let shotos cross you up all over. so just keep them out!
  • ShinRyuXShinRyuX FBC Member Joined: Posts: 133Registered
    And about Guy in A2...he has a hard time against Charlie because Guy has problems against defensive tactics. For example Guy vs. Ryu, Ryu can fireball in his face and keep him out with footsies and AC Guy when Ryu has meter. Usually Ryu likes to be in a position where it's hard for Guy to react to fireballs(hard to lightning drop) and Guy likes to be within range where his pokes are most effective such his standing forward. For this reason, putting ACs and Fireballs into Guy's face makes it difficult for Guy to win. Either he gets ACed when ryu is blocking or Guy gets hit by fireball while sticking out a move or Guy just blocks the fireball. He almost has to guess when Ryu will fireball and he can hurricane kick through the fireball. Guy cannot jump at this range because his jump is so high. If guy misses with the hurricane kick, then Ryu can retaliate with combos. Turtling up against Guy may seem a bit dishonorable but that's how it's played. Charlie, Chun Li, Rose, Ryu are very good at this and can slowly wear Guy down. Of course this maybe theory but it is very very close to what happens in a real match.
  • TSTS pbbbbbbt... Joined: Posts: 3,670Registered
    How do you beat turtle Charlie with Rose?
    "as long as it's his dog, anybody that believes in civil liberties should defend a man that just wants to fuck his dog in the privacy of his own home."
    -thurst
  • StrikeStrike Joined: Posts: 78Registered
    Originally posted by TS
    How do you beat turtle Charlie with Rose?

    How can you not? I don't see how Charlie's turtling would pose a threat to her. Tossing Sonic Booms from a distance, that's just free meter for her. Rose with excess meter = Illusions, that's like free chip or extreme damage whether he blocks or makes a mistake respectively. Out poke her? ROSE?!? Nothing in Charlie's arsenal will beat crouching MP. And he can't jump on her: crouching HP or Level 1 Throw will beat it always.

    If Charlie's turtling, let him. Absorb his fireballs and retaliate accordingly when he's forced to approach.
  • Unknown Joined:
    Cool a A2 thread. I like me some A2 :) Someone start askin some questions so i can be unbored and answer stuff or somethin. Anyone wanna know Chun stuff /matchups??
    Gunter. I would have to say Sim isn't great in A2 also but he's definetly not bottom'ish, he's more around 6-7 in my oppinon but he does have certain matchups that are just horrid for him. but only high level play usualyl exploits his weaknesses. most people of average skill in A2 can't get around sims standard poke patterns,CC's and drill zoning. i found a pretty good ambigous crossup with him too. knockdown into crossup Rh drill , at the right height its 50/50 on blocking and if it connects is free combo into CC. By far the coolest thing about sim is hitting people with the level 3 jab overhead (hold jab for 3 seconds) or even better doing it in a cC and getting the CC victory flash for winning on it.
  • Unknown Joined:
    I thought that Sodom was generally favored in his matchup against Gief.

    The two main factors were:
    1. Strong scrape isnt duckable by gief
    and
    2. Butsumetsu Buster registers Sodom as off the ground, so Gief cannot SPD him while he is `hopping.`

    As for Rose, she`s a lot more than just ducking strong, unless your name is David Sirlin. She has one of the best ACs in the game (especially against CCs thanks to her glitch), and lv. 1 illusions give her the best cross-up in the game and the best airdefense options in the game, as well as great chip. St. fwd is also good for footsies, and cr. rh has raaaange.
  • ShinRyuXShinRyuX FBC Member Joined: Posts: 133Registered
    The way Charlie can counter Rose's low strong is either kick AC or push CC after Rose misses....I think CCing her whiffed low strong is the key. Rose doesn't have too many ways to reverse AC except her soul spark super. How standing forward is resilient towards a lot of ground based kick ACs such as Ryu's and Charlie's because when she does her standing forward, she is off the ground(similiar to Birdie's low forward).

    Rose can basically stand at Charlie's face and absord sonic booms or punch AC when Charlie sticks out something. Or she can just low strong when she wants to play conservative. If charlie jumps in, Rose can low fierce xx lv. 1 aura soul throw. Or push illusion and as Charlie jump in, do her slide so that Charlie lands on it then low fierce into roundhouse drill. Ouch?

    Obviously, this is a fight where Rose is clearly at an advantage. There are some thing that Charlie can do.

    1) CC her whiffed low strong. This is hard but this will greatly increase your chances. Or simply walk within her range and try to kick AC her. If Rose just sits there, Rose is probably waiting for a chance to punch AC.....a throw attempt might be useful at close range. You must try to beat the low strong which is difficult for Charlie.

    2) Jump in with CC through her low fierce.

    3) Sonic break super when you think Rose will try reflect so that she gets hit by 2nd sonic boom. If she ever misses a reflect in close range, CC her immediately.

    4) kick AC her illusion powered drill on the last hit. then try for a cross up combo/cheap. if you do it too early, you will trade hits.

    There is a kind of a glitch you can do with Rose. When someone customs you and you are blocking with Rose, you can punch AC the CC followed up by low strong, short drill. Afterwards....jump at them and do a jump in combo. If they were blocking the normal way, they will get hit. This is a trick. In order to block, you have block by holding forward. Of course, Rose can jump in and throw but her throw is pretty useless. If you ever get thrown by Rose, just tech it and it will do no damage.
  • StrikeStrike Joined: Posts: 78Registered
    Jump in CC against anti-air works, but it works for everybody. And if I see a metered Charlie jump in on my Rose from a very punishable angle, it's most likely he's trying for an air CC blowthrough. No one jumps on Rose unless they're planning on CCing through her. She counters basically everything clean. There is ONE attack Charlie has that can beat her Level 1 Throw... but I think it only works if he's jumping away. I think it's his short, but I remember being extremely surpised when she didn't grab him.

    On CCing a whiffed low strong, yeah, if you can do that, that's great. But you're window of opportunity to punish her is so miniscule, the risk might be a little too great to use. Bait a Soul Reflect and CC a missed one on reaction would be a safer and more reliable option.

    I think Sonic Break is key against the vs. Rose fight for Charlie. It baits the reflect, and it's hard for her to jump over since you can delay it. Other than that, follow the advice above.
  • Unknown Joined:
    ShinRyuX that rose glitch you were tryin to explain is applicable to everyone. What it is, is everytime you CC when you get knocked down out of the CC the character that was CC always gets up in the direction that they were running during CC. Its been around quite awhile and is actually something that happens quite often in high level play. When you punch AC with rose she is turning them around (away from you) then she'll usually ,lowstrong drill at which point its the perfect distance and timing for her to land a jump in combo as yer getting up. The person getting up must always block in the opposite direction. but outside of blocking you can try to get out of it with a wake up reversal. trick is you must do the wake up in the opposite direction also BUT it will do the reversal in the right direction to counter your opponent. Lots of mind games can be achieved with the stuff. cuz then u worry so much about blocking the right way she'll just jump in with nothing, then throw, or wait just a SPLIT second longer before going to combo which allows your character to turn back around correctly(getting up wrong way from CC only last first couple frames) then combos you the right way. its quite funny. Feels good when u actually guess right :) Also if people try to jump in CC you and overshoot you , sweep them from behind and they'll get up wrong way.

    As far as Charlie using his AC's against low strong from rose, not worth it. Charlies AC's both have some of the worst start up time in the game. in fact i've personally seen rose low strong get AC'ed by charlies kick AC, she recovered before it hits her, she blocks it and AC's his AC.
    ONe good thing Charlie has going for him is his throw, HIs throw takes off the same amount of damage if teched,or not teched. I think Jef Pearlman was first to figure that out.
    Rose can just pressure charlie to death with the right ranged low forward slides which charlie can't hit after or else he eats AC or soul spark super. can't throw sonics cuz she can throw em back followed by more pressure, She has great crossup. too good anti air. Something else Omar does as anti air for style points is to hit them out the air With crouching fierce,2n1 that into friends, then activate CC and soul throw or combo.
    I'll post more crap later, MAX-OUT kRIS g.
  • arcticninjaarcticninja Butterfly in the sky Joined: Posts: 1,205Registered
    while we're on the subject of Charlie....

    I got owned by DreamTR's Chun-Li at MWC this year. What can Charlie do against her?


    and Charlie owns Gief almost for free :D
  • ShinRyuXShinRyuX FBC Member Joined: Posts: 133Registered
    There is one character who can jump on Rose....Zangief. His forward double knee drop can beat Rose's anti air attempts. Her low fierce and I think her lv. 1 throw gets hit by it. Basically, Rose has to do something strange like jump up strong or fierce. I think the best Anti Rose character possibly could be E. Ryu. His blow out custom is really useful against Rose's low strong... Just my opinion.

    Charlie almost owning Gief? hmm I don't know that matchup too well but I'm sure Gief can find a way to win. It's funny how normal gief gets owned by normal chuns or shotos but against highly trained giefs, he can surprisingly even things up. Hmm how would this match go.... I would imagine Gief will probably just hang back and charge up meter for awhile. He can avoid sonic boom by greenhand or lariat. Gief should just stick to the ground at this point. I'd imagine Charlie would have a hard time dealing with Gief's jump in, i.e. double knee drop on the way up, especially without charge. And if you do double knee drop then you can SPD him of course. I think Gief should slowly gain ground on Charlie and play footsies with him at close range just like against Shotos. Then jump on Charlie when you think he isn't expecting it or when he is sticking out a move. Even if Gief gets hit, he should keep jumping and try to figure out his opponent such as what makes them sweep or when he likes to sonic boom so Gief can jump in. Good Zangief players will mix up jump in CC, jump in with nothing SPD, knee drop into SPD. And don't forget his lv. 3 FAB. Of course you can try CC after knee drop but Gief can just block the whole thing and now you have zero meter and now you have no AC or CC to save you, muwahaha. It's an old but solid guessing game that makes Gief REALLY dangerous(particularly when he has a lv3). Charlie should be working extremely hard to keep Gief out so I don' think Charlie wins so easily. Actually, if I had choice btw. Gief or Charlie, I'd go with Gief.

    Chun vs. Charlie is what you call a total mismatch. Charlie can't jump against Chun, he gets out projectiled, don't even compare CCs, and Chun li can jump in on Charlie when he sonic booms from fair distance without being punished. Basically Charlie is going to get owned even by a decent Chun li player. You can try forward shell kick to beat her ground moves and never jump on her. Against Chun, you should try to build up to level 3 so you can CC through her Kikoken. I cannot stress enough not to jump against Chun. She will keep you away with kikokens and if you do jump, just jump straight up or just block. You are going to lose if you keep jumping against her because she can and will counter you cleanly everytime by low roundhouse. If you want a good anti Chun(not really since she really has no bad matchup), try Ryu, Ken, Sodom, Rose. I've seen those characters do pretty well against her. I personally like playing Ryu against her. Other than these characters, Chun is pretty much unstoppable if you play her correctly. Of course you could play Chun vs Chun which is perfectly even but really :lame:
  • Unknown Joined:
    Charlie vs. Gief at low levels is hilarious. Charlie can just sonic boom and s.forward as anti-air all day, and a stupid Gief won't know what to do about it.

    High-level Giefs own Charlie for free, because only high-level Giefs know about j.strong, drop through SPD, and of course, knees.
  • arcticninjaarcticninja Butterfly in the sky Joined: Posts: 1,205Registered
    I'll have to take your word for it Gunter ;)

    Do any of the moves you mentioned beat out Charlie's short somersault shell? Cause if so, then I see what you're talking about. Hopefully I can make it to Cali in the summer so I can see what high-level Gief is all about :)

    and about Charlie vs. Gief at low-levels, I completely agree :D I perfected some guy's Gief at MWC with my Charlie :)


    ShinRyuX: Thanks for the anti-chun advice :)



    ok, I have another question now: how good is Evil Ryu? Last time I checked, he was allowed in tournaments. How does he compare to the other shotos? I tried using him in a tourney before with limited success, but I prefer using him over the other shotos.
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