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Are easy fighters a good thing or bad thing?

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  • rayplayrayplay aka solidoutlaw Joined: Posts: 1,386Registered
    A game with a low entry barrier isn't a bad thing. What's important is the end depth. One thing people often mistake is complexity = depth. P4A is one of the simpler (read simpler, not simplest) fighters this gen, but retains so much depth that you can keep coming back for more.


    Also why would GG (arcsys fighters in general) need a two button dash when there's a height limit AND a shortcut to do it instantly? Especially in a game where the main speedy ground movement is a run? It's not like SG where  about half the roster can run and the other half can dash. 
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  • DavDzDavDz Joined: Posts: 308Registered
    I don't understand the "argument" for two button dash in Arcsys games either. However, you are right about people confusing complexity for depth.



     

  • discovigilantediscovigilante He ain't my boy but the brother is heavy Joined: Posts: 525Registered
    edited March 2013
    Well Divekick is the greatest game ever made and it's only got two buttons, so yes.

    Real talk though, I don't think there's anything wrong with games that have low execution requirements or less resources to manage, you just have to be careful about oversimplifying the game. Ideally a game will have simple mechanics but still have a deep, evolving metagame. Marvel 3 kiiiiinda fits that definition (easy on the fingers, seemingly endless possibilities) but I guess is regarded as too random and is not a good game for casual players. So I'm not sure what is a perfect example aside from Divekick; I'll have to try out Breaker's Revenge.
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  • HecatomHecatom 'dat plot Joined: Posts: 8,032Registered
    Raz0r said:
    tataki said:
    Maybe you should quote a random stream monster and make a generalization based off of that as well?

     Instant air dashes in GG are easy as hell with the "shortcut" of 9 being considered as the first 6. You just need to get used to the motion, like how every player needed to get used to doing a fireball motion when starting to play SF. In MB the directional IAD input is harder IMO (because the 9 doesn't count as a 6) but that game has a 2 button dash which makes things easy. You picked a really bad example.

    Wavedashing backwards in a proper pace in MVC3 is harder than all the movement shit you'll ever need in GG, if you really want to compare it to "accessible" games.
    I didn't mention the player's name because he's well-known in the GG scene and don't want to seem like I'm name-dropping. But he's been in the scene since its inception and even lived in Japan for a year to go to school and to compete, so yeah it's not just some random guy. 

    I picked a fine example. Two buttons >>>>>>>>> directional input no matter how you look at it. If you're worried about dashes like in Marvel 2, you could create a height restriction on it just like so many other games do. I don't know what MB is so there's that, but if it's another Arc Systems game and they put in the two-button dash, then that's great and it should be put into GG. They don't and decisions like that make the game arbitrarily difficult. 

    Fuck 2 button dashes(plus lol mvc players and their innability to do dashes without them), if you are so useless that doin 66, 96 is so much for you then i feel very sorry for you
    Besides adding 2 button dashes as a macro takes away a combination that is more useful for something like the Faultless defense or the slash back
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  • KikuichimonjiKikuichimonji Watch out, I know frame data Joined: Posts: 4,213Registered
    Raz0r said:
    Effenhoog said:
    Persona 4 Arena did a decent job of keeping the game simple without completely ruining it.  That said, I do think P4A went a bit too far with this, to the game's detriment.

    As someone who has mostly played Guilty Gear for 5 or 6 years I can definitely appreciate a game being less difficult, but if you go too far your game can definitely start to suffer
    I believe P4A got a lot of things right, some even better than GG. Let's face it, the execution-heavy nature of GG is both a superfluous handicap and it keeps many people from playing. For example, air dashing. Why not give a two attack-button airdash instead of only being able to airdash by double-tapping a direction? I brought this point up to a GG player and he said it shouldn't be easier because then too many people would be proficient with airdashes.What kind of backward thinking is that? Being able to master double-tapping as soon as you jump so you get a close ground airdash is a waste of time and shouldn't be so difficult. I won't get into the RIDICULOUS amount of meter management the game has and how a few tweaks to the interface can help make it way easier to follow. 

    I love Guilty Gear, LOVE IT, but the players make it sound elitist. When P4A came out and simplified so many of Arc Systems mechanics, I thought it was a blessing. Of course GG players got a bit butthurt over it, but removing the unnecessary difficulty of execution removes the belief that only robotic people should be good at it. I hope with future updates of GG they'll take steps to reworking its problem spots just like +R's first patch did.

    I recognize I'm a former MvC2 player and we had our shit ruffled when some mechanics of Marvel 3 were made to be easier, but a lot of the changes were so drastic it made it into a different game. 
    Footsie is boring as all hell in P4A because there are only 3 buttons you can use to footsie with. Not enough options to keep it from "If he does X I should do Y."

    Oh and the ridiculous over-the-top scaling on 2A makes it so that oki leads to less damage than random hits.
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  • PurpleLemonadeGGPOPurpleLemonadeGGPO Joined: Posts: 1,228Registered


    lower barrier of entry = good
    element of randomness, rewards stupidity = bad
  • Negative-Zer0Negative-Zer0 Joined: Posts: 3,147Registered
    GG's entry barrier is a fault with the game. Not sure if any player would agree with that, but its true.
    MvC2 is way easier to get into, but hard as hell to master. That should be the goal of most games honestly, instead of catering to the .02% of the world..
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  • KikuichimonjiKikuichimonji Watch out, I know frame data Joined: Posts: 4,213Registered
    edited March 2013
    Hecatom said:
    Kikuichimonji said:Footsie is boring as all hell in P4A because there are only 3 buttons you can use to footsie with. Not enough options to keep it from "If he does X I should do Y."

    Oh and the ridiculous over-the-top scaling on 2A makes it so that oki leads to less damage than random hits.
    I disagree with this because footsies are only a little part of the spacing game, wich includes not only your normals but also your specials and your air normals, yes you have less options on the ground if you only go by your normals, but you have access to all the other mobility options that help with your spacing game.
    When Yu's best answer to Mitsuru's 5A is "I guess I'll slide and hope she doesn't do nothing and then fatal me with 5B on reaction," that's dumb. And then you have stuff like Aigis's ability to air dash j.c, which really just can't be challenged by most characters. The normals are so over-the-top in Persona that interesting interactions are often quashed.

    This is one of the reasons that "removing complexities" makes a game less fun sometimes.

    If you really think any character in P4A has as many relevant options as a GG counterpart, I'd like to hear it.
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  • rogueyoshirogueyoshi Joined: Posts: 1,865Registered, Premium
    edited March 2013
    my sentiments exactly. and i do think it's okay to limit options as long as the ones given are meaningful but they were just shy of pulling that off with persona. i have faith that if arcsys were to adjust it then the game would be golden, but you know how they are if a game isn't GG or BB...
    Louis Lam wrote:
    I've always liked to think of MvC3 as a MvC2 parody with really heavy satire on modern fighters.
  • tatakitataki Non-SF4/MVC3 FG news: twitter.com/#!/novriltataki Joined: Posts: 4,809Registered
    edited March 2013
    Kikuichimonji said:Footsie is boring as all hell in P4A because there are only 3 buttons you can use to footsie with. Not enough options to keep it from "If he does X I should do Y."

    Oh and the ridiculous over-the-top scaling on 2A makes it so that oki leads to less damage than random hits.
    P4U has 4 buttons actually.

    You are also sticking to one detail (number of buttons) instead of looking at the bigger picture. In SF games you have 6 buttons, but many of your normals are unused. For example many of Ryu's standing normals are overshadowed by his crouching ones, so having 6 buttons only offers you a huge selection on paper, not in practice. In air dashers you have less buttons, but you can be assured that most of them will get used in various situations.

    What's more, air dashers are not all about which button to press but also at what angle to attack at, with aerial moves playing a huge role. This is the natural result of having more movement options.

    Now if you wanna argue that P4U is simpler than other air dashers, no one ever claimed otherwise, but Melty Blood and Arcana Heart are perfectly fine with 3 attack buttons.

    Also your comment about scaling and 2A sounds like MVC3 to me, not like P4U. In P4U if you punish a big mistake by starting a combo with a bigger move, not only your possible combo routes are better, the difference in scaling is noticeable. That's why if you predict most dragon punches, you can punish with an easy half life combo which will be unpractical to try during neutral game.
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  • HecatomHecatom 'dat plot Joined: Posts: 8,032Registered
    If you really think any character in P4A has as many relevant options as a GG counterpart, I'd like to hear it.
    LMAO, did i say that they had? No, so don't put words in my mouth, i am only saying that the spacing games is more than just footsies, certainly the game has less options compared to GG for example, but the whole idea of P4A is to have a simple game yet while it retains enough deep, a game to serve as a gateway for the newcomers on the FG genre
    my sentiments exactly. and i do think it's okay to limit options as long as the ones given are meaningful but they were just shy of pulling that off with persona. i have faith that if arcsys were to adjust it then the game would be golden, but you know how they are if a game isn't GG or BB...

    LMAO
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  • jedpossumjedpossum What you say? Joined: Posts: 2,667Registered
    Hecatom said:
    Kikuichimonji said:Footsie is boring as all hell in P4A because there are only 3 buttons you can use to footsie with. Not enough options to keep it from "If he does X I should do Y."

    Oh and the ridiculous over-the-top scaling on 2A makes it so that oki leads to less damage than random hits.
    I disagree with this because footsies are only a little part of the spacing game, wich includes not only your normals but also your specials and your air normals, yes you have less options on the ground if you only go by your normals, but you have access to all the other mobility options that help with your spacing game.
     
    GG's entry barrier is a fault with the game. Not sure if any player would agree with that, but its true.
    MvC2 is way easier to get into, but hard as hell to master. That should be the goal of most games honestly, instead of catering to the .02% of the world..
    GG is more accessible than many people believe, outside the FRC everything on the game is quite easy, not every bnb is execution heavy and is not combo heavy like other games (contrary to popular believe)
    MvC2 is still easier from super motions that are a motion and two buttons, hardly any half circle motions, even character assists help, plus a simple heads up display make it easier to get into. If I post my heads up display for vsav it'll make vsav look super fucking complex game.
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  • rogueyoshirogueyoshi Joined: Posts: 1,865Registered, Premium

    Hecatom said:
    Kikuichimonji said:Footsie is boring as all hell in P4A because there are only 3 buttons you can use to footsie with. Not enough options to keep it from "If he does X I should do Y."

    Oh and the ridiculous over-the-top scaling on 2A makes it so that oki leads to less damage than random hits.
    I disagree with this because footsies are only a little part of the spacing game, wich includes not only your normals but also your specials and your air normals, yes you have less options on the ground if you only go by your normals, but you have access to all the other mobility options that help with your spacing game.
    When Yu's best answer to Mitsuru's 5A is "I guess I'll slide and hope she doesn't do nothing and then fatal me with 5B on reaction," that's dumb. And then you have stuff like Aigis's ability to air dash j.c, which really just can't be challenged by most characters. The normals are so over-the-top in Persona that interesting interactions are often quashed.

    This is one of the reasons that "removing complexities" makes a game less fun sometimes.

    If you really think any character in P4A has as many relevant options as a GG counterpart, I'd like to hear it.
    my sentiments exactly
    Louis Lam wrote:
    I've always liked to think of MvC3 as a MvC2 parody with really heavy satire on modern fighters.
  • InknailInknail alert the lame police Joined: Posts: 107Registered
    I'm not sure what constitutes an "easy" fighter by example, but I feel like some games are a little easier to get into, learn the basics, and build on that than others. P4A and, to some degree, MB have felt good to me for learning spacing, movement management, and a few simple rules for each game before moving on to the more complex functions.
  • tatakitataki Non-SF4/MVC3 FG news: twitter.com/#!/novriltataki Joined: Posts: 4,809Registered

    Hecatom said:
    my sentiments exactly. and i do think it's okay to limit options as long as the ones given are meaningful but they were just shy of pulling that off with persona. i have faith that if arcsys were to adjust it then the game would be golden, but you know how they are if a game isn't GG or BB...

    LMAO
    It's true though. Why would they invest as much in a franchise they don't have full rights for?

    P4U was a safe money maker that allowed them to experiment with new mechanics, like all the other fanservice games they did beforehand, and it was a fun diversion for a while. It was not meant to be something you quit other ASW games for.
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  • IglooBobIglooBob play 3s it's a good game Joined: Posts: 1,299Registered
    why did this thread turn into being about air dashers
  • jedpossumjedpossum What you say? Joined: Posts: 2,667Registered
    From the mere mention of Guilty Gear.
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  • Hatred EdgeHatred Edge Tyrannical Joined: Posts: 9,260Registered
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  • SlamtasticSlamtastic Joined: Posts: 531Registered
    edited March 2013
    Inknail said:
    I'm not sure what constitutes an "easy" fighter by example, but I feel like some games are a little easier to get into, learn the basics, and build on that than others. P4A and, to some degree, MB have felt good to me for learning spacing, movement management, and a few simple rules for each game before moving on to the more complex functions.
    Any game can be described as both easy and hard.

    Street Fighter IV is easy, it has Ultras and big input/reversal windows.
    Street Fighter IV is hard, it has links instead of a chain system and there are option selects, unblockables, and vortexes.

    MvC3 is easy, it has less buttons than 2, no double motion inputs, X-Factor, easy chains, and simple mode.
    MvC3 is hard, it moves fast, you have to manage 3 characters, you get hit with long combos for big damage, there are tons of fullscreen hitting things, when you lose characters you lose offensive options from assists.

    MK9 is easy, combos all chain together with no timing needed, juggling is super lenient and the gravity on them is light, there are no DP, half circle, or double quarter circle inputs, you don't have to worry about crossups, there are combo breakers.
    MK9 is hard, is a phrase said by no one, ever.

    So I'd say there are actually very few "easy games". It's easy to learn to reliably do normals, throws, and specials in any game. And it's pretty easy to do combos on a training dummy. But every game becomes hard when you go online and fight a person who's trying hard to win.

    It's not about the entry barrier, it's about the skill ceiling. As long as something exists that a player can do, some people won't be able to do it and/or deal with it and will consider the game hard for including it, because people online can do it and beat them with it. The "solution" would be making it so no one can do it, that way those that can't do it because they don't want to grind training mode don't have to deal with people who did. Which, obviously no one who's big into the genre enough to be on a dedicated forum for it wants.
  • IglooBobIglooBob play 3s it's a good game Joined: Posts: 1,299Registered
    these all seem like pretty abstract things.  does Marvel 2 have a higher skill ceiling than ST?  how would you be able to tell if it did?

    I like to think about games in terms of risk/reward and what kinds of behaviors are rewarded.  I don't really like how situations play out in SF4 for instance.  but I doubt that has much to do with a skill ceiling or whatever.
  • rogueyoshirogueyoshi Joined: Posts: 1,865Registered, Premium
    jedpossum said:
    double post
    lol, shows how much this forum sucks dick. i actually made that second post like 20 minutes before the first but it didn't go through so i made the 2nd more detailed one
    Louis Lam wrote:
    I've always liked to think of MvC3 as a MvC2 parody with really heavy satire on modern fighters.
  • sinnish4sinnish4 sinhish Joined: Posts: 4Registered
    edited March 2013
    Please don't mention mvc2 and mvc3 together. It's a slap in the face to Mvc2.

    High Execution is the fun factor for me when it comes to fighting games. Since that shit is gone and is replaced, easy 100% combos, huge input buffers, well....it force me to become a casual player and many alike. The only fighting games I own are games made before sf4. Because, how can I be impressed with combos/100% combos when everyone and their grandmother can do it? How can I be impressed with a comeback when theirs a mechanic designed for it to happen? How can I stay on my toes during a match and not lose focus to the point were I want to fall asleep when someone does a simple super and theres like a 30 minute wait.

    Im not saying dont have a entry level, but damn, make that a mode or something. Dont alienate the fucking fans that made your ass!

    if you like these mvc3, sf4, sxtekken, great! Happy for you. good job! but dont saying people are hating or full of it when they tell you what type of fighters they would have dedication to vs the type of fighters thats worth there time. Everyone are not drones that simply have to deal with it. Agree to disagree.
    Post edited by sinnish4 on
  • rogueyoshirogueyoshi Joined: Posts: 1,865Registered, Premium
    edited March 2013
    this might be controversial, but one could say mvc2 (or any other game that lets a player do something like this) technically has a lower skillcap than a lot of games if you are able to convert a single clean hit into inf into guardbreak consistently. thats ignoring both the execution and difficulty it takes to land that clean hit though.
    Louis Lam wrote:
    I've always liked to think of MvC3 as a MvC2 parody with really heavy satire on modern fighters.
  • rayplayrayplay aka solidoutlaw Joined: Posts: 1,386Registered
    I too, wonder why people think GG's entry barrier is difficult. Back before I even took fighters seriously, I was able to understand the ups and downs of the mechanics like FD and SB. How air dashes worked and the basic combo system. It's only when you get to stuff like FRCing that it starts getting harder, and even then, it's only certain FRCs that are really difficult. 

    Also, on P4A, BB, and SG,  I think these fighters do the best job (I don't mention the 3D fighters of this gen because I haven't played them...yet) at teaching the player, well, how to play. They all tell you how to play the game, about it's characters, and SG even tells you about stuff like mixups and why it's important. I think it's very important to do this because even if the depth is there, there are many players whom wont know unless they really go into it. 

    Like, for example, Fate: Unlimited Codes. I first played this game when I didn't play fighters seriously, so a lot of the mechanics in the game, in my eyes, seemed to just kinda be there. Like, sure, they served a purpose, but what was I to know what to do with it? I just wanted to beat up the AI on my psp and try to figure out the story to this series I had never heard about until that game. So, to narrow it down to a single mechanic, the reflect dash (sorry if I get the names and/or usages wrong but it's been months since I last played). To me, it was just a command dash that took meter and maybe just helped you get in. But when you tell me that I can cancel my attacks into it and keep doing combos from it, allowing me to do longer, more damaging, and flashier combos, well now I'm certainly more interested. Now instead of my doing ABC special, I can start doing ABC dash ABC special. And from there, I can learn more usages for it. 

    Now I'm aware the Fate has trials that use the relfect dash so it's not like they never tell you and I'm just using it as an example, but when games can explain to you what something does, and more importantly, WHY YOU SHOULD CARE, it gives the player more reason to explore and thus, they'll find more enjoyment. 
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  • CyclopsPawnchCyclopsPawnch PEW PEW Joined: Posts: 52Registered

    IglooBob said:
    these all seem like pretty abstract things.  does Marvel 2 have a higher skill ceiling than ST?  how would you be able to tell if it did?

    I like to think about games in terms of risk/reward and what kinds of behaviors are rewarded.  I don't really like how situations play out in SF4 for instance.  but I doubt that has much to do with a skill ceiling or whatever.
    I suppose top level play and/or TAS videos can show how fast and execution heavy a game can get, depending on what you mean by "skill cap".
    this might be controversial, but one could say mvc2 (or any other game that lets a player do something like this) technically has a lower skillcap than a lot of games if you are able to convert a single clean hit into inf into guardbreak consistently. thats ignoring both the execution and difficulty it takes to land that clean hit though.
    You spin out of infinites in MvC2, but even if you didn't if it's so hard to pull off that people never do it doesn't mean that the skill cap is high?
    And lol that's my quote in your sig from some SRK article forever ago, how long have you had that there?
  • RoGE9RoGE9 Joined: Posts: 715Registered
    edited March 2013
    tataki said:
    NickRocks said:
    If a fighting game doesn't have a higher execution to practice, then...what the hell is there to do
    So reaction, spacing, knowledge, prediction, assessing situations, functioning under pressure etc. are skills that don't really exist and as soon as you can do special moves with Ryu in SF2 you reach Shooting D's level? I think you are mixing fighting game with rhythm games...

    Some people enjoy practicing difficult combos as it gives them another thing to do in practice mode; it also presents another challenge that can provide a sense of progression once a person overcomes it. It’s not for everyone and I’d personally prefer those difficult combos to be more optional.

    I will admit though, seeing stuff like Sako doing the bb hood infinite and MarlinPie’s doing his awesome combos are hype.

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  • keo-baskeo-bas Joined: Posts: 1,119Registered
    edited March 2013
    As person who loved Breakers revenge. The reason I love breaker revenge because most of the game design is not just random. All character tools have some application that use in breaker system.

    while in other game i notice trend where some tools are ignore because their limit application. 
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  • NickRocksNickRocks Almost Godlike Joined: Posts: 9,988Registered, Premium
    NickRocks said:
    If a fighting game doesn't have a higher execution to practice, then...what the hell is there to do
    React to and predict an actual human intellect.
    that's cute and all, but honestly the only people I ever see praising less complexity and execution and more "mindgames" are scrubs who like to memorize frame data but suck at actually playing the game.

    You learn combos, then you learn how to use them in matches and the best times. That's how it goes. If you remove the need to practice combos then the fun of fighting games is gone
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