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Are easy fighters a good thing or bad thing?

LouiscipherLouiscipher Joined: Posts: 4,443Registered
While playing Breaker's Revenge it occurred to me that having a really easy fighter to get into may be a bridge between casual and hardcore players. Breaker's Revenge is very easy to get into BUT it doesn't cater to bad players with input shortcuts or comeback mechanics. No Xfactor, no Ultras, no easy Reversals, no FADC to safety, and no Pandora. There are Guard Cancels/Reversals (I.E. Breakering) but it takes some significant skill to pull off and you can be easily baited. 

But if the game is super easy to get into, is it a positive or negative thing if all that's left is the meta game? 

Final thought: Breaker's Revenge should be the game Capcom/Dimps/Niitsuma should copy if they want to bring more casuals into their games. 
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  • SlamtasticSlamtastic Joined: Posts: 531Registered
    It's a great thing.

    Reducing overcomplexity in number of mechanics, resources to manage, and physical exception/timing can only benefit a game.
  • IglooBobIglooBob play 3s it's a good game Joined: Posts: 1,299Registered
    depends on what easy means.

    is ST easy?  3s?  Marvel 3?
  • SlamtasticSlamtastic Joined: Posts: 531Registered
    I wouldn't call any of them easy.
  • IglooBobIglooBob play 3s it's a good game Joined: Posts: 1,299Registered
    I think ST is pretty easy to get into.  3s doesn't have a huge initial barrier either.
  • EffenhoogEffenhoog Witty user titles can get stuffed Joined: Posts: 1,385Registered
    Persona 4 Arena did a decent job of keeping the game simple without completely ruining it.  That said, I do think P4A went a bit too far with this, to the game's detriment.

    As someone who has mostly played Guilty Gear for 5 or 6 years I can definitely appreciate a game being less difficult, but if you go too far your game can definitely start to suffer
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  • LouiscipherLouiscipher Joined: Posts: 4,443Registered
    tataki wrote: »
    Most games are easy to *play*. Most games are also hard to *excel* at. So what's your question exactly?
    Honestly, you'd have to play Breaker's Revenge to get what I'm saying. P4A is another good example. 
  • Zee Tee BeeZee Tee Bee "Get at Rila!" Joined: Posts: 882Registered

    While playing Breaker's Revenge it occurred to me that having a really easy fighter to get into may be a bridge between casual and hardcore players. Breaker's Revenge is very easy to get into BUT it doesn't cater to bad players with input shortcuts or comeback mechanics. No Xfactor, no Ultras, no easy Reversals, no FADC to safety, and no Pandora. There are Guard Cancels/Reversals (I.E. Breakering) but it takes some significant skill to pull off and you can be easily baited. 

    But if the game is super easy to get into, is it a positive or negative thing if all that's left is the meta game? 

    Final thought: Breaker's Revenge should be the game Capcom/Dimps/Niitsuma should copy if they want to bring more casuals into their games. 
    I like Breakers R and all but I think you're giving the game way more credit than merited.

    First off, Breakers R DOES have a comeback mechanic, two actually. There's a damage modifier for Red Health and the craziest damage mod I've ever witnessed (outside of X-Factor, duh) is the timer mod, where each passing second increases damage for the next hit (with the damage cap being at about 20 seconds). The latter rewards in favor of the opponent who's getting their ass beat or locked down by pressure.

    Second, reversals are fairly easy in this game. I don't have exact numbers but I never recall a time where I said to myself: "Damn, I fucked up reversal xyz again. Reversal window too small - BAWWW!".

    And finally, "doesn't cater to bad players"?
    ...Sho wants to have a talk with you, Mister. :|
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  • Dragonage2ftwDragonage2ftw Joined: Posts: 47Registered
    Bad. They take the complexity and remove most of the fun.
  • LouiscipherLouiscipher Joined: Posts: 4,443Registered
    First off, Breakers R DOES have a comeback mechanic, two actually. There's a damage modifier for Red Health and the craziest damage mod I've ever witnessed (outside of X-Factor, duh) is the timer mod, where each passing second increases damage for the next hit (with the damage cap being at about 20 seconds). The latter rewards in favor of the opponent who's getting their ass beat or locked down by pressure.

    Second, reversals are fairly easy in this game. I don't have exact numbers but I never recall a time where I said to myself: "Damn, I fucked up reversal xyz again. Reversal window too small - BAWWW!".

    And finally, "doesn't cater to bad players"?
    ...Sho wants to have a talk with you, Mister. :|
    Fair points! But I don't know about Sho, Shoto's are for the most part easy to use in every fighter but because of the balance in Breakers it's possible for pretty much every character to nail him so it's not an 8/10 matchup in his favor anything. 
  • GespenstRitterGespenstRitter Joined: Posts: 20Registered
    Having a low barrier to entry can only yield positive results. Even if a game never manages to achieve a high skill cap along with that low entry barrier (which is the best result), depending on the mechanics, it can still at least be fun, even if it ends up lacking depth.
    Breaker's Revenge is very easy to get into BUT it doesn't cater to bad players with input shortcuts or comeback mechanics. No Xfactor, no Ultras, no easy Reversals, no FADC to safety, and no Pandora.
    Comeback mechanics have never actually been the problem. Poorly-designed mechanics are the problem, and it just so happens that the three most prominent recent cases of poorly-designed mechanics (Ultras, X-Factor, and Pandora) are comeback mechanics. So now people have this mentality that comeback mechanics are bad, and when faced with examples of well-designed mechanics that are still clearly designed for comebacks (KOF meter system, any of the three ASW Burst mechanics, etc.), they come up with this retroactive explanation on how they're not actually comeback mechanics, because any good mechanic couldn't possibly be a comeback mechanic.

    There are Guard Cancels/Reversals (I.E. Breakering) but it takes some significant skill to pull off and you can be easily baited.
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  • tatakitataki Non-SF4/MVC3 FG news: twitter.com/#!/novriltataki Joined: Posts: 4,809Registered
    tataki wrote: »
    Most games are easy to *play*. Most games are also hard to *excel* at. So what's your question exactly?
    Honestly, you'd have to play Breaker's Revenge to get what I'm saying. P4A is another good example. 
    Or maybe you can just find suitable words to describe what you are talking about.

    Also if you want a less technical GG there are many better ways to do it than what P4U did. For example you don't need to completely get rid of FRCs and the depth they add just because they are hard. Just make the windows larger and tweak it to make sure it doesn't create broken edge cases -- last frames or first frames allowing you some unchecked BS.
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  • lightskintwinlightskintwin Black Militant Racist Joined: Posts: 27Registered
    Having a low barrier to entry can only yield positive results. Even if a game never manages to achieve a high skill cap along with that low entry barrier (which is the best result), depending on the mechanics, it can still at least be fun, even if it ends up lacking depth.
    Breaker's Revenge is very easy to get into BUT it doesn't cater to bad players with input shortcuts or comeback mechanics. No Xfactor, no Ultras, no easy Reversals, no FADC to safety, and no Pandora.
    Comeback mechanics have never actually been the problem. Poorly-designed mechanics are the problem, and it just so happens that the three most prominent recent cases of poorly-designed mechanics (Ultras, X-Factor, and Pandora) are comeback mechanics. So now people have this mentality that comeback mechanics are bad, and when faced with examples of well-designed mechanics that are still clearly designed for comebacks (KOF meter system, any of the three ASW Burst mechanics, etc.), they come up with this retroactive explanation on how they're not actually comeback mechanics, because any good mechanic couldn't possibly be a comeback mechanic.

    I still haven't played MVC3 or SFXT, however I still fail to see how Ultras are poorly-designed mechanics in SF4.  Now I can understand if somebody doesn't like them, however they work exactly as Capcom intended and introduce another set of meta-games within their series, not to mention it also offers the flashy, spectacular, cinematic, superficial aspect that typically appeals to a broader audience.  
  • LouiscipherLouiscipher Joined: Posts: 4,443Registered
    I think a majority of the players (both hardcore and casual) dislike comeback mechanics not because you get rewarded for getting hit or losing characters but the kind of reward you get. In the oldschool fighters getting the shit beaten out of you and gaining some meter back was the norm. But now you get the shit beaten out of you and you suddenly gain access to the super good move that completely changes the matchup. Not to mention that no one likes a 20 second cutscene play while the timer keeps ticking away. 

    The concept worked in Samurai Shodown because those were weapon-based fighters where you have to play patiently and one or two hits can do massive damage. It did not work in SF. Needless to say that the supers in Samurai Shodown were typically hard to land and left you wide the hell open if they whiffed or were blocked. 
  • lightskintwinlightskintwin Black Militant Racist Joined: Posts: 27Registered
    edited March 2013
    I think a majority of the players (both hardcore and casual) dislike comeback mechanics not because you get rewarded for getting hit or losing characters but the kind of reward you get. In the oldschool fighters getting the shit beaten out of you and gaining some meter back was the norm. But now you get the shit beaten out of you and you suddenly gain access to the super good move that completely changes the matchup. Not to mention that no one likes a 20 second cutscene play while the timer keeps ticking away. 

    The concept worked in Samurai Shodown because those were weapon-based fighters where you have to play patiently and one or two hits can do massive damage. It did not work in SF. Needless to say that the supers in Samurai Shodown were typically hard to land and left you wide the hell open if they whiffed or were blocked. 
    You're literally using your own opinions and stating them as facts coupled with baseless generalizations.  I honestly don't even know where to begin...  
  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Quantum Theorist. Liquid Dubstep Energy Joined: Posts: 29,224Registered
    Seeing that streams are dead and Evo isn't pulling the biggest numbers it's ever had...it's a bad thing obviously.

    It can tend to take away some of the options you were normally capable of in the older games, but in the end people are still playing outside of the really old conservative type players that Capcom at least isn't going to cater to anymore.  Especially since those people don't really make them any money.
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  • Raz0rRaz0r Just as planned... Joined: Posts: 3,958Registered
    Effenhoog said:
    Persona 4 Arena did a decent job of keeping the game simple without completely ruining it.  That said, I do think P4A went a bit too far with this, to the game's detriment.

    As someone who has mostly played Guilty Gear for 5 or 6 years I can definitely appreciate a game being less difficult, but if you go too far your game can definitely start to suffer
    I believe P4A got a lot of things right, some even better than GG. Let's face it, the execution-heavy nature of GG is both a superfluous handicap and it keeps many people from playing. For example, air dashing. Why not give a two attack-button airdash instead of only being able to airdash by double-tapping a direction? I brought this point up to a GG player and he said it shouldn't be easier because then too many people would be proficient with airdashes.What kind of backward thinking is that? Being able to master double-tapping as soon as you jump so you get a close ground airdash is a waste of time and shouldn't be so difficult. I won't get into the RIDICULOUS amount of meter management the game has and how a few tweaks to the interface can help make it way easier to follow. 

    I love Guilty Gear, LOVE IT, but the players make it sound elitist. When P4A came out and simplified so many of Arc Systems mechanics, I thought it was a blessing. Of course GG players got a bit butthurt over it, but removing the unnecessary difficulty of execution removes the belief that only robotic people should be good at it. I hope with future updates of GG they'll take steps to reworking its problem spots just like +R's first patch did.

    I recognize I'm a former MvC2 player and we had our shit ruffled when some mechanics of Marvel 3 were made to be easier, but a lot of the changes were so drastic it made it into a different game. 
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  • tatakitataki Non-SF4/MVC3 FG news: twitter.com/#!/novriltataki Joined: Posts: 4,809Registered
    Raz0r said:
    I brought this point up to a GG player and he said it shouldn't be easier because then too many people would be proficient with airdashes.What kind of backward thinking is that?
    Maybe you should quote a random stream monster and make a generalization based off of that as well?

     Instant air dashes in GG are easy as hell with the "shortcut" of 9 being considered as the first 6. You just need to get used to the motion, like how every player needed to get used to doing a fireball motion when starting to play SF. In MB the directional IAD input is harder IMO (because the 9 doesn't count as a 6) but that game has a 2 button dash which makes things easy. You picked a really bad example.

    Wavedashing backwards in a proper pace in MVC3 is harder than all the movement shit you'll ever need in GG, if you really want to compare it to "accessible" games.
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  • Mr. XMr. X Non Stop ∞ Climax Joined: Posts: 19,534Registered, Premium
    A lot of fighters are easy at the surface.

    It's really hard to curb emergent elements, which is what makes a game harder over time.
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  • Raz0rRaz0r Just as planned... Joined: Posts: 3,958Registered
    tataki said:
    Maybe you should quote a random stream monster and make a generalization based off of that as well?

     Instant air dashes in GG are easy as hell with the "shortcut" of 9 being considered as the first 6. You just need to get used to the motion, like how every player needed to get used to doing a fireball motion when starting to play SF. In MB the directional IAD input is harder IMO (because the 9 doesn't count as a 6) but that game has a 2 button dash which makes things easy. You picked a really bad example.

    Wavedashing backwards in a proper pace in MVC3 is harder than all the movement shit you'll ever need in GG, if you really want to compare it to "accessible" games.
    I didn't mention the player's name because he's well-known in the GG scene and don't want to seem like I'm name-dropping. But he's been in the scene since its inception and even lived in Japan for a year to go to school and to compete, so yeah it's not just some random guy. 

    I picked a fine example. Two buttons >>>>>>>>> directional input no matter how you look at it. If you're worried about dashes like in Marvel 2, you could create a height restriction on it just like so many other games do. I don't know what MB is so there's that, but if it's another Arc Systems game and they put in the two-button dash, then that's great and it should be put into GG. They don't and decisions like that make the game arbitrarily difficult. 

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  • tatakitataki Non-SF4/MVC3 FG news: twitter.com/#!/novriltataki Joined: Posts: 4,809Registered
    GG already has a height restriction. If you input 96 it will automatically start the dash at the minimal height possible. In any case, you are complaining over something that's incredibly easy and if you sat down to play the game for 2 weeks you'd be used to it by now. I didn't complain when I needed to start doing IAD with 2 buttons in Melty Blood, I played and played until it became second nature. Both methods are EASY and just require GETTING USED TO. If something was needlessly hard believe me I'd be the first to complain about it.
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  • ArugulaZArugulaZ Uses Dan w/o Irony Joined: Posts: 116Registered
    What's your opinion of Pocket Fighter/Super Gem Fighter Mini-Mix as an entry level fighting game?  At first blush it seems like it would fit the bill (one punch and kick, combos that are as easy as tapping buttons in rapid succession), but there are play mechanics even I as an intermediate player couldn't master.  (The item system from Warzard immediately comes to mind.)

    Power Stone also seems like a reasonably approachable fighting game, although it's not a versus fighter in the traditional sense.  The fact that you can run just about anywhere by holding the joystick in that direction, along with the elimination of special move input commands, makes me think that it would be a good toe in the water for casual players.
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  • LouiscipherLouiscipher Joined: Posts: 4,443Registered
    edited March 2013
    You're literally using your own opinions and stating them as facts coupled with baseless generalizations.  I honestly don't even know where to begin...  
    No. First paragraph was me bringing up the general opinions of the community. And these are complaints people have had with the game. I'm not about to quote everyone but I remember when SF4 came out a lot of people had those complaints which I've echoed.

    The second paragraph was my personal opinion in comparison to Samurai Shodown. So I don't see how I used my own opinions to back myself up. You must have terrible reading comprehension skills.
  • rogueyoshirogueyoshi Joined: Posts: 1,865Registered, Premium
    if you mean easy fighters as in low entry barrier, then yeah its a good thing. if you mean easy as in low skill cap, then that's horrible and its the reason why the genre is losing respect from even it's best and most dedicated players
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  • ironboy89ironboy89 Beep Boop Beep Joined: Posts: 4,317Registered
    There is nothing wrong with making a game LOW by entry.  If the entire game lowers the skill cap, and has a rubberband type logic then there is something wrong with it

    I'm sure Capcom doesn't care about the pro players or vet players.   Making mechanics to lower the differences of skill between is kind of dumb.
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  • tatakitataki Non-SF4/MVC3 FG news: twitter.com/#!/novriltataki Joined: Posts: 4,809Registered
    edited March 2013
    NickRocks said:
    If a fighting game doesn't have a higher execution to practice, then...what the hell is there to do
    So reaction, spacing, knowledge, prediction, assessing situations, functioning under pressure etc. are skills that don't really exist and as soon as you can do special moves with Ryu in SF2 you reach Shooting D's level? I think you are mixing fighting game with rhythm games...
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  • DavDzDavDz Joined: Posts: 308Registered
    There's nothing wrong with having a game that's easy to pick up, but hard to master.

     

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