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Compiling Frame Data

Zee Tee BeeZee Tee Bee "Get at Rila!"Joined: Posts: 882Registered
edited February 2013 in Fighting Game Discussion
Considering working on a project for a fighter I've been infatuated with as of late which involves compiling complete frame data. I understand how frame data is used an applied for the most part but how the data is gathered to begin with is what I haven't fully grasped yet.

By using frame-by-frame advancing tools, I can record, what I consider to be the most basic of frame data compilation, the start up of "striking" attacks (not too sure how to go about normal and command throws though). However, I'm not really sure what I should be looking for or at exactly when it comes to the subjects of: Duration, Active Frames, Frame Advantage/Disadvantage, and Recovery.

Startup
This is fairly simple to examine: Observe the character's neutral animation, execute attack, advance frame by frame until hit spark (or some indicator of contact) appears. The number between the neutral starting point and where the connection/hit lies would be considered as startup. (I can't help but feel that there are some exceptions to this that I may be overlooking though).
*Jump Startup
Not too sure how to determine this. How does one go about finding when a character has reached what would be considered the "airborne" state?

How is normal and command throw startup determined (especially in the case where throws start in 0F)

Total Duration
Total time it takes for character to return to neutral position after executing an attack. This one is kind of tricky for me as I've had mentioned to me a few times that there are, in some cases, frames where a character may seem to have returned to the neutral state but those frames are in fact still part of the total duration.

How does one confirm when a character is absolutely and fully returned to the neutral state?

Active Frames
How long an attack remains in an attacking state. Fortunately, I have a hitbox viewer that displays active frames and I can easily just frame advance and count off but...

How would/should active frames be calculated without hitbox display tools?

Frame Advantage/Disadvantage
One of the easiest ways to determine frame advantage (usually guarded advantage) is to have the opponent block an attack and have both (usually mirrored) characters IMMEDIATELY JUMP upon recovery. The character leaving the ground first in that situation is considered to have advantage. However, since I'm compiling data, I'd like to have numbers to work with as reference.

How are +/- frames calculated and what factors should be considered when trying to determine the numerical value of frame advantage/disadvantage? Are there other methods of calculation aside from the "1F jump" method?

Recovery
How long a character takes a character to return to the neutral state after an attack has landed(?). Not really sure how to define this but the term seems to tie closely to duration and +/- frames. Maybe someone can elaborate on this before I can consider adding this to the data.

So basically, I need to know what are the best methods of use to calculate frame data with limited tools, what tools should I consider acquiring (if available) to make the process less of a headache, and whether or not there are any unconventional methods for compiling data out there that has been overlooked.
"Regardless of what they knew and could do, the 360 d-pad undid them." - Book of Rioting Soul
**Team Grain of Salt** 7/11
Post edited by Zee Tee Bee on

Comments

  • rogueyoshirogueyoshi Joined: Posts: 1,865Registered, Premium
    edited February 2013
    if its a modern game, 60fps video capture is a must. if its older and emulated then you have tools like frame advance and even lua scripting in the emus that can automate things for you. you'd be able to find memory addresses for blockstun duration and calculate many values you're looking for
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  • pheraipherai LIVE FOREVER Joined: Posts: 9,879Registered
    does anyone actually get frame data this way? i thought any frame data out there is always from supplementary sources provided by the developers
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  • Zee Tee BeeZee Tee Bee "Get at Rila!" Joined: Posts: 882Registered
    edited February 2013
     you'd be able to find memory addresses for blockstun duration and calculate many values you're looking for
    That's actually kind of scary lol. Will definitely look into this, thanks.


    if its a modern game, 60fps video capture is a must.
    The game is actually Breakers Revenge (if you haven't already figured that out), but lets assume it was a modern game I was working with. I'm assuming that the video capture provides a means for me to frame advance. If this is the case, I still need to know what exactly to look for in order to accurately calculate and compile data. As I mentioned in the OP, coming up with startup is the most "common sense" piece of info I can pick out but I'm not exactly sure what I should be examining when trying to collect data for the other aforementioned categories.

    Any insight on this for future reference would be appreciated and thanks for the help thus far.
    "Regardless of what they knew and could do, the 360 d-pad undid them." - Book of Rioting Soul
    **Team Grain of Salt** 7/11
  • jedpossumjedpossum What you say? Joined: Posts: 2,667Registered
    You don't have to record for frame advance on breakers if you use Mame-rr or Fba-rr.
    If you mention Jojo's expect a long talk.
    Computer memory doesn't lie the heads up display can.
  • Zee Tee BeeZee Tee Bee "Get at Rila!" Joined: Posts: 882Registered
    jedpossum said:
    You don't have to record for frame advance on breakers if you use Mame-rr or Fba-rr.
    By "record" I meant the other definition (jot down, register for evaluative purposes). And it was likely I was going to step into the matrix with you on this question down the line but wanted to keep it in Breakers thread. Any info you have on the use of Mame-rr/Fba-rr to acquire frame data for any game in general would be cool though.


    pherai said:
    does anyone actually get frame data this way? i thought any frame data out there is always from supplementary sources provided by the developers
    "Back in the day" there were instances where frame data was compiled in this manner. And iirc the recent sfxt 2013 frame data floating around was compiled utilizing some of the "traditional" techniques. But yeah, more commonly now though, devs provide data for their games at some point after a release.

    Still, I'm interested in how data is/was compiled using the older, unconventional methods. I'm thinking about doing TMNT:TF frame data somewhere down the line as well and I don't think there are as many convenient tools available to assist with the process for that.
    "Regardless of what they knew and could do, the 360 d-pad undid them." - Book of Rioting Soul
    **Team Grain of Salt** 7/11
  • jedpossumjedpossum What you say? Joined: Posts: 2,667Registered
    Back in the day, mook companies were luck to get the data especially from Capcom. Which was usually just start up, active, and recovery frames.

    My favorite is getting access to the editors.
    image


    Off topic: It's funny when I'm messing with frame data a thread like this always happens.
    If you mention Jojo's expect a long talk.
    Computer memory doesn't lie the heads up display can.
  • fluxcorefluxcore Fighting Kiwi Joined: Posts: 283Registered
    If it's a game which will run in Mame-RR or FBA-RR, there's a great guide at


    A lot of the techniques can be applied anyway though.
    There is no knowledge that is not power
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