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Evil Ryu version 2013 wish list

Rice_EaterRice_Eater Now more EvilJoined: Posts: 931Registered
I see other character forums doing this, so lets get in on this to. First off there is no announcement of a version 2013, Ono has mentioned that he's interested in doing it but this is all wishful thinking right now. So just for fun and for the sake of discussion, what changes would you like to see with Evil Ryu. This is mine which I copy and pasted from the rebalance request thread with some minor changes.

Light axe kick
-reduce stun from 200 to 100
-change it from -7 on block to -3

Reason: Right now I don't know what Capcom wants us to do with this move. It's unsafe on block, isn't a true block string when used with low forward, and it does shit damage with no follow up or mix up opportunities. Pretty much all it's good for is FADC combos. But that cost meter. This change will at least make it a pressure tool, but it's still unsafe as it's not a true block string and when spaced poorly, it can still be punished by fast normals or specials.

HK axe kick
-make it a overhead

Reason: It's extremely slow and no Evil Ryu player uses it. It's very easy to stuff it or jump out of it even when canceled from a normal with a lot of hit stun like st. HP or st. MP. If it's an overhead, at least there will be some incentive in going for it and hoping to catch your opponent off guard.

EX axe kick
-give it hit invincibility
-reduce damage from 160 to 120

Reason: It shares a similar problem with the HK axe kick, it's slow and gets stuffed or jumped out of so easily unless canceled from a high hit stun normal. This will at least make people be forced to block it similarly to Makoto's EX chop. Reducing the damage should balance things out a bit. But it remains -4 on block and with very little push back, it's definitely punishable on block. So it's not something that can be thrown out without fear.

sweep
-change start up from 7 frames to 6

Reason: Evil Ryu is low health and low stun, but unlike other low health/stun characters. He lacks the tools to get in and stay in. With this he can at least Tatsu > sweep every character that Akuma can and stay on top of his opponents. He doesn't have a deadly mix up game so it's not like you'll be seeing one axe kick combo followed by another on a wrong guess. So his wake up pressure will be pretty basic, but at least it's something just to help him out a bit.

Stand Jab
-change start up from 4 to 3 frames
-increase hit stun so that it's +6 on hit instead of +5

Reason: OK this one is probably not necessary. It's just me wanting more. I just want a faster jab so I can attempt to punish things like Balrog's jab dash punch. And increasing the hit stun is so he can have another combo into a hard knockdown. Again I think I'm getting a bit greedy here but I just wanted to throw this out there.

The axe kicks is Evil Ryu's unique special move, but Capcom has made almost every version of it crap. The only semi decent one is the MK version. These changes makes that move much more relevant, but not too strong. I changed very little else where so he's not that different from before, except that you may actually use the axe kicks more this time around for pressure and as overheads.
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Comments

  • m00ieeem00ieee Joined: Posts: 4Registered
    Agree with rice_eater.
    Light axe kick should not be punishable.

    Possible other buffs:
    Make towards MK an overhead like Juri's.
    Buff the teleport range or speed or both.
  • KomatikKomatik Card demon Joined: Posts: 780Registered
    The sweep change risks Evil Ryu becoming a monster. He already does more damage than Akuma, which helps mitigate the less fearsome vortex. But the biggest change is in footsies, where ERyu gets a poke at the standard shoto sweet spot where he is currently weak (and as compensation stronger further out with a buffed Ryu-style zoning game and "step focus", and with batshit insane combo potential up in the opponent's face), basically turning him into a super shoto.
    GFWL: Coffeeling
    AE: Akuma, Ryu, Dhalsim
  • EsseX The SinnerEsseX The Sinner Joined: Posts: 14Registered
    More invincibilty for the EX DP
    start up 6 frames for cr MK "OR" cr HK
    Axe Kick HK advantage frames on block +2
  • peqqifulpeqqiful Joined: Posts: 105Registered
    Chk 6f, teleport same as akuma,divekick more frame avance on hit,light axkick +1 frame advandage on block. Reduce health to 850 stun remain as in 2012
  • KomatikKomatik Card demon Joined: Posts: 780Registered
    Balancing by health is horrible. It creates stupid shit like Seth where you feel your win condition is hitting a couple random things. Also, as above on the sweep. It is a stupidly dangerous change (only outdone by 5f or 6f cr.mk)
    GFWL: Coffeeling
    AE: Akuma, Ryu, Dhalsim
  • pat-tlick15pat-tlick15 Joined: Posts: 25Registered
    mp>fp combo- fp doesn't KD, special move cancellable, +meter gain

    dive kick- +frames on hit
    hopkick- hits shoto's cr.mk

    ex hurricane- make all hits hit

    HK axe kick- overhead, more pushback
    EX axe kick- Rice eater

    ex fb- no knockdown, less recovery, less knockback on hit

    lp red fb- less startup,
    mp red fb- less startup, less knockback on block
    fp red fb- less startup, less knockback on block, less recovery
    ex red fb- less startup, less knockback on block, less recovery, faster speed...like sagat

    teleport ultra cancellable....

    FLAME AURA ONLY ACTIVE ON special moves, EX MOVES, SUPER, ULTRA- shit looks retarded
  • Rice_EaterRice_Eater Now more Evil Joined: Posts: 931Registered
    The sweep change risks Evil Ryu becoming a monster. He already does more damage than Akuma, which helps mitigate the less fearsome vortex. But the biggest change is in footsies, where ERyu gets a poke at the standard shoto sweet spot where he is currently weak (and as compensation stronger further out with a buffed Ryu-style zoning game and "step focus", and with batshit insane combo potential up in the opponent's face), basically turning him into a super shoto.

    I really don't see how this makes Evil Ryu that much more threatening. Yes he gets a new untechable knock down combo and yes this strengthens his footsie game. But I don't think it does it to the point that you fear. He doesn't have a scary mix up game to really capitalize off hard knockdowns. I know how other characters can be really scary with small changes, but I really don't see how this would apply to Evil Ryu with this change. If they made his low forward a 5 framer and changed nothing else about it, then that would be huge. But I'm not asking for that.

    m00ieee, making the hop kick a overhead would make it too good. The move is good for blowing up crouch tech and you can do a ton of extra damage off it with a aerial EX tatsu. If Capcom made it a overhead, they would probably also remove the ability to special cancel it into a tatsu. We already have two overheads with the F+MP and the EX axe kick, so it wouldn't be worth it.

    peqqi, I want to place more emphasis on the axe kicks but I don't mind your version either. Although it would make him more similar to Akuma though.
  • DannkkDannkk Joined: Posts: 1,454Registered
    Man...I feel like I'm the only person that likes lk axe kick how it is.
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  • ThisGuy198ThisGuy198 Joined: Posts: 15Registered
    Read my mind on the st.lp and sweep changes.
    I was thinking f.mp combos in to EX shoryu so could get more damage of his overhead... Or more damage to his overhead but that mite be asking to much haha
  • m16ghostm16ghost Joined: Posts: 1,469Registered
    lk axekick is not going to be +1 on block. that is a ridiculous buff

    divekick could probably use a little more hitstun, though.
  • Someguy92Someguy92 Joined: Posts: 656Registered
    70 damage hadouken and add 10 to all shoryukens and 6 frame cr.fwd and same inv on ex dp as o.ryu. Ex tatsu should have all hits also. If I wanted to tatsu sweep characters. I'd just choose Akuma damn though having a sweep that reaches the toes would be nice.
    Check out Toonami on adultswim 12 pm est on Saturday. Seriously. Do it
  • KomatikKomatik Card demon Joined: Posts: 780Registered
    Why do you people list madness? 6 frame sweep ranged low forward into 400 damage. 70 damage on fireballs to go with that when the low forward connects more often as a true blockstring than other shotos. When your faraway game is better than normal Ryu's (better walk speed, dashes, focus, shaku...) and you can go batshit insane in some opponent's face in a way he could never hope to? ... yeah. Sure. Right. Gotta be okay. I also heard Cammy needs buffs because EX Cannon Strike is bad.

    Tatsu fixes I approve of. Shoryukens, whatever. I'd much rather get some actual hitboxes on antiair specials and normals. Have you seen that shit? It's PITIFUL. Turns out Cammy's DP has an actual hitbox. Big surprise there.
    GFWL: Coffeeling
    AE: Akuma, Ryu, Dhalsim
  • DeathGunDeathGun Joined: Posts: 401Registered
    Better hitstun for the divekick - not good vs tall chars other than for a meat dive aka "dp me pls dive", it would allow E.R. to at least do c.mp combos against the non tall chars but I dont see that extra damage as a big trouble for the balance of the matchups.

    cl.MK connecting after MK Axe Kick against all the chars while standing. I dont like random mixups, but fuck it, thats whats SF4 is all about.

    If the cl.MK is too much of a buff, then the c.HK connecting after lk.Tatsu against every char with the same recover as Ryu's c.HK. Its not necessary to me taht the c.HK's startup gets changed to 6f, if they manage to keep its current framedata while allowing the move to hit after the lk. Tatsu its fine to me.

    Id have to test a 6f c.MK before to give a final word about it, sometimes its seens too strong in my mind games, but others times it seens just fine, given how E.R. Sucks against some chars at such range. But if Id change it to 6f Id increase its recovery frames by 2 or 3, such good poke must be punishable with some ease if it misses.
  • pat-tlick15pat-tlick15 Joined: Posts: 25Registered
    how about keeping cr.mk 7f....but make hopkick faster/better?

    hopkick>lk. tatsu unpunishable at -1f, add juggle
    >mk tatsu juggle, -2 on block
    >hk tatsu NO juggle, +2 on hit, bigger damage

    ryu got solar plexus>follows. e.ryu gets hopkick>tatsu>srk/ or hopkick>mixup

    the above mentioned with 6f sweep, and cr. mk makes him way too strong.
  • LemonMeringueLemonMeringue Joined: Posts: 164Registered
    His air tatsu is horrible, make it the same as Akuma's or the same as Ryu's. 6 frame sweep or cr mk would be amazing but the air tatsu is the only really big problem.
  • KikuichimonjiKikuichimonji Watch out, I know frame data Joined: Posts: 4,213Registered
    I actually think 6 frame cr.mk is reasonable. I don't like 6 frame cr.hk just because it will make him a tatsu -> sweep monster. It's not an elegant buff, it's a buff that says "I give up, he's Ryukuma now." I wish there were a way to give him cr.mp -> sweep without giving him tatsu -> sweep. It would let him use his midrange kara throw game better and actually capitalize without counterhit.

    One buff that would be crazy but play into his playstyle would be buffing the speed of cr.hp so that it can combo off cr.mp or cr.lp without CH. I don't think it would lead to infinites if it were 5 frames.

    I think he should have some safe option off f.mk xx tatsu. It's currently useless without EX in my opinion. It's minus on hit on all tatsus from when I checked. I'd rather do f.mk -> cr.lp and see if I CH than do a regular tatsu.

    One change that might seem kinda crazy is if they made lk axe kick knock down and fast enough to combo from cr.mp. He just needs a way to combo into knockdown from his sweet spot. This would remove "cr.mk leads to 400 damage and knockdown." Maybe this could be combined with 5f cr.mk and leave lk axe kick at its current speed. I don't want that buff to happen really, but I don't see other options.

    They should increase the blockstun on hk axe kick so that you can abuse the frame advantage better. At least +3 on block or something. If it actually led to a real mixup, people would be more scared of it. Currently there's just no reward for going for it.

    Far hp CH, and his target combo, should put the opponent in a free juggle state. It would still be useless but not laughable.
    Domination 101 by Seth Killian - Why the hell haven't you read this yet?

    Maj's Footsies Handbook - It's like the Bible, but for Street Fighter.
  • KomatikKomatik Card demon Joined: Posts: 780Registered
    cr.mk buffs are not reasonable unless you do something to severely curtail the conversion potential. It has sweep range, ridiculous conversion potential and the blockstring already going for it. Making it not-awkward at that typical shoto sweet spot just turns ER into a monster. Now, if you kill the stupid damage? Bring on the good low pokes. I've been wanting a fast-walking footsies/zoning character that isn't charge-based for who knows how long.
    GFWL: Coffeeling
    AE: Akuma, Ryu, Dhalsim
  • solwinsolwin Joined: Posts: 9Registered
    Increase dive kick hitstun
    Make far smk from -3 to -2 on block
    Light,medium and hard axekick to have a better range hitbox(Hard axekick an overhead or make it 1 more frame faster making it 25 frames?)
    Light axekick to push opponent further when blocked.
    Crmk to go slightly more forward than it already does
    St far HK to go slightly more forward than it already does
    Crhk to go slightly forward
    Close hk to have a better hitbox
    EX axekick same frames as mk axekick which is 20frames i believe.
    Fmk+extatsu+U2 to connect in the corner.
    Raging demon to be faster.
  • KikuichimonjiKikuichimonji Watch out, I know frame data Joined: Posts: 4,213Registered
    cr.mk buffs are not reasonable unless you do something to severely curtail the conversion potential. It has sweep range, ridiculous conversion potential and the blockstring already going for it. Making it not-awkward at that typical shoto sweet spot just turns ER into a monster. Now, if you kill the stupid damage? Bring on the good low pokes. I've been wanting a fast-walking footsies/zoning character that isn't charge-based for who knows how long.
    That was why I argued for lk axe kick knocking down, so that the only routes for big damage off cr.mk would be A)CH cr.mk xx mk axe kick, which is a gamble or B) cr.mk xx fireball FADC, which doesn't lead to a huge combo at cr.mk's best ranges and doesn't do as much anyway.
    Domination 101 by Seth Killian - Why the hell haven't you read this yet?

    Maj's Footsies Handbook - It's like the Bible, but for Street Fighter.
  • Rice_EaterRice_Eater Now more Evil Joined: Posts: 931Registered
    I agree that buffing cr. MK is a bit unreasonable since it has so much range and hit/block stun. But I still disagree with speeding up his sweep making him too good in any way. He'll be a little better, but that's it. There is no vortex after tatsu sweep, the sweep itself will still be -11 on block. So it can't be thrown out brainlessly like Gouken's sweep, and still isn't as safe as Ken or Akuma's sweep.

    But besides that, I'd really like buffs to his axe kicks so that it's actually a viable move in this game. I mean this is Evil Ryu's unique move, but we never see him use it because of how bad it is. MK is used for combos, and EX is used for prayers(and is unsafe), and that's it. I'd like to get more mileage out of this move and I think what I propose is fair. As for LK axe kick causing a knockdown, I would actually be all for that even if we lose a big damaging FADC combo. I think the benefit of a knockdown on hit is a lot more viable then a big damage combo that cost 2 bars and involves several 1 frame links.
  • KikuichimonjiKikuichimonji Watch out, I know frame data Joined: Posts: 4,213Registered
    I agree that buffing cr. MK is a bit unreasonable since it has so much range and hit/block stun. But I still disagree with speeding up his sweep making him too good in any way. He'll be a little better, but that's it. There is no vortex after tatsu sweep, the sweep itself will still be -11 on block.
    He does have a vortex. Divekick/j.mk/crossup tatsu/empty jump cr.lk cr.lp cl.hp, and if they block you get his excellent frame trap/throw pressure.

    The point wasn't that it would be too good, but it would be that he would just be losing individuality as a character.

    He doesn't have combos off crossup tatsu, but that's really the only difference I think.
    But besides that, I'd really like buffs to his axe kicks so that it's actually a viable move in this game. I mean this is Evil Ryu's unique move, but we never see him use it because of how bad it is. MK is used for combos, and EX is used for prayers(and is unsafe), and that's it. I'd like to get more mileage out of this move and I think what I propose is fair. As for LK axe kick causing a knockdown, I would actually be all for that even if we lose a big damaging FADC combo. I think the benefit of a knockdown on hit is a lot more viable then a big damage combo that cost 2 bars and involves several 1 frame links.
    That was exactly my point, yeah.
    Domination 101 by Seth Killian - Why the hell haven't you read this yet?

    Maj's Footsies Handbook - It's like the Bible, but for Street Fighter.
  • Rice_EaterRice_Eater Now more Evil Joined: Posts: 931Registered
    He does have a vortex. Divekick/j.mk/crossup tatsu/empty jump cr.lk cr.lp cl.hp, and if they block you get his excellent frame trap/throw pressure.

    Dive kick/cross up doesn't work because after a sweep(unless you're in the corner), you have to walk forward a bit give show the threat of that. And when you do, you can't land the dive kick meaty enough to combo into. When people know that, all they have to do is worry about being with the cross up only or just block correctly even if they get hit by the dive kick(or just simply dash out of either move). Besides that, he just gets the basic stuff that every character can do off a knockdown like empty jump low short or counter hit set ups. You can't consider that stuff a vortex or you can say everybody has one. Again, he doesn't have any dangerous mix ups off a sweep, it just helps a bit so he has more opportunities to do the simple things like empty jump low short or throw mix ups.
  • Logan SamaLogan Sama Joined: Posts: 885Registered
    I only need one thing. clHP activating from 2 pixels further away.

    Then tap tap cl.HP xx MK Axe Kick will work on everyone. GGs

    Bonus prizes would be an extra frame of hit stun for dive kick, so it is easier to combo Seth and sagat etc. And an extra frame of hit stun on j.LK so the fake cross up LK combos into cr.LP properly.
  • DeathGunDeathGun Joined: Posts: 401Registered
    As for LK axe kick causing a knockdown, I would actually be all for that even if we lose a big damaging FADC combo. I think the benefit of a knockdown on hit is a lot more viable then a big damage combo that cost 2 bars and involves several 1 frame links.
    Something else would have to change on the lk AK in order to give you any decent pressure potencial with such hard knockdown. With lk AK's current frame data and positioning on hit (point blank) it wont allow you to do any hard-to-block jumpin, the only thing you will be able to do is a dive kick, the crossups will miss. You wont have time to walk back and get into the necessary distance to hit a crossup before the opponent get up.

    I dont know what to think about such change if the framedata of the move is changed to allow a better pression on the opponent's wake up. Id hate to lose the comboing potencial because I like to do those combos a lot plus it pushes the opponent all the way towards the corner and it allows Ryu to do ambiguos setups (lk. AK fadc cl.mp, lk tatsu)against almost the whole cast. But the timming of such combos are really a problem because to miss them twice in a set will send you to the losers or get you eliminated from a tournament. We all know that its pretty commom to have lagging setups on tournamments, this year's evo had a lot of problems with that due usb hubs, streamings and whatever else. When doing it one frame earlier or later means to win or to lose, it becomes a lottery when going to such tournaments with E.R., hes the most timming-depending char in the whole game imo. I had lost in all the decent tournaments I tried to play with E.R. due dropping combos and missing the setups coz of lag. I keep trainning with E.R. only to end up playing the tournaments with Ryu and with my matchs starting 0-1. In an ideal scenario we shouldnt take lag into consideration when balancing a game, but well, thats the reality of the fighting scene today. Akuma wouldnt be the dominant force he is today if all those 2-3f links were 1f links.

    Overall, the current ER's pression game on knocked chars midscreen is really weak, far from ambiguos. Its very easy to discern when hes going for the crossup and when hes divekicking when you have experience playing against him, and his normal air moves are as easy to block as Ryu's ones, even easier because his j.HK is a lot easier to block than Ryu's j.HP.
  • Someguy92Someguy92 Joined: Posts: 656Registered
    Why do you people list madness? 6 frame sweep ranged low forward into 400 damage. 70 damage on fireballs to go with that when the low forward connects more often as a true blockstring than other shotos. When your faraway game is better than normal Ryu's (better walk speed, dashes, focus, shaku...) and you can go batshit insane in some opponent's face in a way he could never hope to? ... yeah. Sure. Right. Gotta be okay. I also heard Cammy needs buffs because EX Cannon Strike is bad.

    Tatsu fixes I approve of. Shoryukens, whatever. I'd much rather get some actual hitboxes on antiair specials and normals. Have you seen that shit? It's PITIFUL. Turns out Cammy's DP has an actual hitbox. Big surprise there.
    Pass me some of that shit you're smoking.
    Check out Toonami on adultswim 12 pm est on Saturday. Seriously. Do it
  • KomatikKomatik Card demon Joined: Posts: 780Registered
    ? Would you mind telling me why you think I'm high? What, exactly, makes Evil Ryu's game far away from the opponent worse than normal Ryu's? As far as I know, most of the relevant tools are the same, and Evil Ryu has a bunch of other ones on top. Seems better to me. Unless our concept of far away is different, in which case yes, he might actually be worse.
    GFWL: Coffeeling
    AE: Akuma, Ryu, Dhalsim
  • otoriotori 1dgod Joined: Posts: 2,862Registered
    - lk axe kick fadc on hit +4 or +5 (easier combo. You still go for cl.mp since other normals won't combo into mk axe kick)
    - mk axe kick on hit +5 (again just to easen up the 1 frame dependancy. If comboing from mk axe kick into cl.hp becomes possible, maybe increase pushback on hit, w/e)
    - better frame data on shakunetsu
    - better forward movement and lock properties for ultra 2 (so opponent's don't fall out and you can actually punish stuff that's -7).
    - better invincibility on ex dp.
    - lowered hurtbox on cr.mk
    - more stun
    - something about cr.hk to stop it from being a completely useless button. 6 frames is imo too much, but other options would be 1-2 extra frames of knockdown for an automatic safe jump like ryu (and since you can't combo it against everyone it wouldn't be as big of a deal) or extended hitbox so it actually outranges cr.mk or less recovery, i dunno, something.
  • Someguy92Someguy92 Joined: Posts: 656Registered
    ? Would you mind telling me why you think I'm high? What, exactly, makes Evil Ryu's game far away from the opponent worse than normal Ryu's? As far as I know, most of the relevant tools are the same, and Evil Ryu has a bunch of other ones on top. Seems better to me. Unless our concept of far away is different, in which case yes, he might actually be worse.
    ughh idunno maybe better cr.fwd and sweep and easier to combo into. Better fb both regular and ex. More health. Better tatsu for punishing fbs. Better jump RH for punishing fb from greater distance. Better Super. More health. E.Ryu gets wrecked by O.Ryu.
    Check out Toonami on adultswim 12 pm est on Saturday. Seriously. Do it
  • xxicebreakersxxxxicebreakersxx Joined: Posts: 3Registered
    ughh idunno maybe better cr.fwd and sweep and easier to combo into. Better fb both regular and ex. More health. Better tatsu for punishing fbs. Better jump RH for punishing fb from greater distance. Better Super. More health. E.Ryu gets wrecked by O.Ryu.

    Actually, their fireballs are identical in frame data, O. Ryu just does 10 more damage, which really doesn't matter (although O. Ryu's ex fireball has a faster recovery, so I guess you're right about a better EX, but I love me my U2 combos with E. Ryu so I'm fine with his). The cr. fwd is faster yes but I don't know if you could say better, since with E. Ryu cr. fwd xx Hadoken is almost always a true blockstring, and it basically has sweep range, which is seriously awesome. The rest of what you said is true though (except for that last sentence D:<).
  • MIRACLEARROWMIRACLEARROW Surge of Murderous Intent Joined: Posts: 63Registered
    Alot of these are stupid. I'm sorry but E.Ryu is just execution heavy but he has a ton of tools...That is like asking to make C.Viper easier... She's just execution heavy, she SERIOUSLY does not need to get any better. ERyu is just under utilized, people are starting to realize how good he is recently.
    2012 Main: Evil Ryu and Ryu,
    Retired: Guile - *Shades*, Makoto
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