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Offical SRK AE rebalance Request Thread

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  • VeseriusVeserius Paragon of Cyber-Athleticism Joined: Posts: 4,887Registered
    edited March 2013
    akuma bnb damage output isn't really that great, especially against crouching characters.

    like bnb damage matters more than got a far range j.hk, far hk combo because that happens so rarely to him converting off of a cr.short vs. a character.
  • ragerunner05ragerunner05 keep it cool Joined: Posts: 31Registered
    Norieaga said:
    Akuma may have tools but he is quite difficult to use. I don't think he has enough health to play the Ryu-style game all day, so you have to know your setups in order to maximize his effectiveness. There is nothing herp-derp about him. 
    NO he is not difficult to use and guess what, every character has some character specific setups, dunno why everyone keeps bringing this up as"Akuma only". You can do pretty good with him playing zoning and poking game, then doing basic mixup after scoring a knockdown which isnt hard for Akuma. His basic mixup is mostly safe and always a hard gamble all in his favor.

    Also you Akuma mainers complain about lack of health, but always fail to mention his deffensive options which are pretty much best in the game, bar none. You are just as bad as Cammy players, if not worse.
  • GamogoGamogo Common sense isn't. Joined: Posts: 1,339Registered
    Akuma mainers don't complain about his poor health.

    That's like motorcycle riders complaining about having only two wheels.
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  • VeseriusVeserius Paragon of Cyber-Athleticism Joined: Posts: 4,887Registered
    edited March 2013
    When I was talking about blanka focus being pretty poor vs. cammy earlier after being told it was good, this is a little of what i was talking about.



    (no game audio because it kept desynching, you can obviously go for an easier combo after the f.dash)

    the ultra punish only works on hit, but yeah. 

    I can make a more complex video talking about the issues with the pressure after being level 2 actually being in Cammy's favor but I'm lazy and don't want to show 9-10 options. 
  • The BreakerThe Breaker witchcraft works animu Joined: Posts: 1,458Registered
    edited March 2013
    Gouki doesn't have a command grab

    just sayin'

    Also I would be totally okay with Seth having 750/750 again if they gave him j.HP back (start up increased by 2f and minus one active frame tho)
    dreamin

    Low level players pls stop saying health/stun matters less at high level. It matters more. Low health characters get their Ultras faster, the meter management game changes slightly, being allowed one more mistake against a top level player is huge, and getting stunned with no scaling is a much bigger threat (and a much bigger deal.) Seth is not scary to low levels if he doesn't know how to stun you in 2-3 mix ups and Seth players are a hell of a lot more comfortable churning SPD when you don't know how to frame trap.

    Post edited by The Breaker on
    I don't play games because I am a game.
  • ragerunner05ragerunner05 keep it cool Joined: Posts: 31Registered
    edited March 2013

    Gamogo said:
    Akuma mainers don't complain about his poor health.

    That's like motorcycle riders complaining about having only two wheels.
    But they sure love to mention it...
  • VeseriusVeserius Paragon of Cyber-Athleticism Joined: Posts: 4,887Registered

    Gouki doesn't have a command grab

    just sayin'

    Also I would be totally okay with Seth having 750/750 again if they gave him j.HP back (start up increased by 2f and minus one active frame tho)
    dreamin
    demonflip grab is a command grab technically
  • The BreakerThe Breaker witchcraft works animu Joined: Posts: 1,458Registered

    Veserius said:

    Gouki doesn't have a command grab

    just sayin'

    Also I would be totally okay with Seth having 750/750 again if they gave him j.HP back (start up increased by 2f and minus one active frame tho)
    dreamin
    demonflip grab is a command grab technically
    In the sense that Viper has a fireball with her burn kick, yeah.
    I think that would also qualify Gouki for slowest and most telegraphed command grab in the game when the opponent is not knocked down (well maybe Gouken?)
    I don't play games because I am a game.
  • EmanuelbEmanuelb Joined: Posts: 1,255Registered
    edited March 2013
    Everyone complained about yun not yang plus there werent that many yangs to begin with except chirithy and justin wong. i doubt yang was stronger than 2012 cammy 

    No, everyone complained about Hong Kong trio or about the Twins - and both groups include Yang too. And Japan was filled with Yang mainers, Floe was maining Yang, Alioune was maining yang. Just watch SBO 2011.

    They can balance Akuma to an extent by

    - Reducing his walk speed
    - Increasing air fireball and teleport recovery
    - Nerfing demon flip somehow

    This would be enough. I mean come on, you watch Akuma play, 90% of the time he just flat out WALKS RIGHT UP and sweeps you. It's a tad ridiculous for a character with so many tools

    Man, please, just shut up. It's because people like you that Capcom does stupid changes. Those nerfs would destroy Akuma. And, btw, no, I don't see at all Akuma doing 90% of the time walk-sweep.     

     
    Post edited by Emanuelb on
    SSF4 AE v. 2012 - Tier List (v.2013) - http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/2879/tierlist2013.png

    SSF4 AE v. 2013 - updated Buff List: http://www.freeuploadsite.com/do.php?id=3721
  • chubbyfingerzchubbyfingerz Joined: Posts: 267Registered

    Man, please, just shut up. It's because people like you that Capcom does stupid changes. Those nerfs would destroy Akuma. And, btw, no, I don't see at all Akuma doing 90% of the time walk-sweep.     

     

    Go suck a tard buddy, this is a discussion in a forum for discussion, feel free to discuss, add or rebuke. Eat a d-ck
  • EmanuelbEmanuelb Joined: Posts: 1,255Registered
    edited March 2013
    Of course, of course. Nothing less from Chubbyfingerz. But please, don't let me interupt your...uhm...discussion.
    SSF4 AE v. 2012 - Tier List (v.2013) - http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/2879/tierlist2013.png

    SSF4 AE v. 2013 - updated Buff List: http://www.freeuploadsite.com/do.php?id=3721
  • Swedish ChefSwedish Chef SUPLEX A MOTHERF***IN' TRAIN!!! Joined: Posts: 5,292Registered
    Honestly I just want Capcom to make an update that fixes the broken things in the game first (release it a little bit after EVO so competetive players have time to adjust to the new version), then once we have the updated version we wait a couple of months so that we have enough time to collect data of how the removal of glitches and bugs affect each of the cast members of the cast before we start making requests for character changes.
    TAKING YOU PUNKS DOWN!!!
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  • superlollosuperlollo S Tier Joined: Posts: 2,550Registered
    Eternal said:
    Ex arrow is only usable in reaction to fireballs. To make it break armor you need to be up close for the 2hits. Which makes it -10 on block. Too risky/wasted meter. No sane cammy on this planet or otherwise will ever use ex arrow to break focus. It takes 36 or 38? Whiffed juuump strikes to build 1bar... That's over 38 seconds of the round. Reminds me when people complained about cammys tkcs meter gain. Invalid complain. Close lp is almost useless as it whiffs on almost every character in the game (crouching)
    I didn't say whiffed CS was an effective way to build meter safely. Actually I specifically stated it wasn't effective but it was safe. close LP whiffs on most crouchers? welcome to the world of ~30% of the fucking cast. Cody's close s.LP whiffs on crouchers AND standing. There are positions he can stand where it wont hit at all against anyone.

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=AecFtuza-cM

    Seriously you aren't helping the view of many cammy players being the most out of touch with the real world in the game. Cammy is top 3 in the game EASILY. She had a lot of issues in Super but they literally buffed half of her normals by DOUBLE and many of her other moves got buffed along side them.

    "EX Spiral Arrow doesn't break armor from full screen and if you use it up close it's unsafe. Therefor it is shit" That right there is the kind of thinking that is retardedly myopic. Instead of seeing how at different ranges the move has different uses a lots of strengths if used properly but requires actual proper footsies/spacing/reads to utilize without being punished as being how 80% of the cast has to play you zoom into "it doesn't do everything for me there for it's not worth mentioning."

    No, seriously, stop the BS. You said some correct things earlier, but EX SA being a good armour breaker is beyond stupid. Why waste 1 meter to break armour when HK SA does the exact same thing without meter? And as the other guy said, to get the 2 hits you have to do it from a range where it's punishable by anyone in the cast with their absolute max punish.

    Cammy uses c.mk with a buffered hk SA from max range to break focus.
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  • EternalEternal Joined: Posts: 1,954Registered

    No, seriously, stop the BS. You said some correct things earlier, but EX SA being a good armour breaker is beyond stupid. Why waste 1 meter to break armour when HK SA does the exact same thing without meter? And as the other guy said, to get the 2 hits you have to do it from a range where it's punishable by anyone in the cast with their absolute max punish.

    Cammy uses c.mk with a buffered hk SA from max range to break focus.
    Once again people adding things to what I said to try and argue with me. I not once said the words "good armor breaker." All I said was "it breaks armor up close." Which is simply a fact. What the move IS good for is OSing many characters back dashes, and as yet another way to avoid fireballs on top of Spin Knuckle, Hooligan (not a reliable option but heavy/ex can go over some lower height fireballs like Sakura.), and Cannon Strike. It also serves a good way to quickly get in if properly spaced (though not really an issue thanks to her having the best walk speed in the game and EX CS to basically get in any time she has meter which is most of the time.)

    Spiral Arrow covers a number of uses, while it is certainly far more effective at some than others it doesn't do almost everything Cammy wants in 1 move while also being risk free on block/whiff and highly rewarding on hit.
  • AmigoOneAmigoOne Joined: Posts: 1,029Registered
    Ha this thread is starting to look like the gouken forums
  • HNIC MikeHNIC Mike Joined: Posts: 4,571Registered
    hope youre not directing that "people adding things to what i say" bit at me...
    fuck AE ranked matches
  • GenistarGenistar Joined: Posts: 2,562Registered
    Can we just like you know add in our opinions and discuss about it without getting irritable with one another. All we have to do is explain why so and so should be nerfed and buffed, have a discussion about it but not in this manner.  I don't want to seem rude or anything but, i do see who is adding words to what other people are saying and its not helping at all. 
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  • blufangblufang Return to dust Joined: Posts: 307Registered
    Let's just not nerf anybody and get back to discussing what needs to be buffed.  

    Is anyone broken?  Does anyone have all advantage match ups? No...?  Well then let's stop complaining and discuss what lower characters need.  If you guys want to keep discussing nerfs fine.  However that opens up nerfs as a whole...you can't isolate it to one character.   It is challenging enough agreeing on what to buff, if we go into nerfs we'll never get anywhere.
    If you play a character cause of her jiggle physics, you need to get out more.
  • The BreakerThe Breaker witchcraft works animu Joined: Posts: 1,458Registered
    You can talk about what lower characters need all day. Once they get what they need, someone else is going to take their place. You have to look at everyone when you are balancing.

    And some characters just can't get what they "need" because they just don't mesh well with the engine. Another reason that extensive changes would work better for certain characters over "less is better."
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  • SuperstarSuperstar Joined: Posts: 146Registered
    Different changes will have different effects at different levels. One of many reasons a consensus won't be reached. 
  • EternalEternal Joined: Posts: 1,954Registered
    blufang wrote: »
    Let's just not nerf anybody and get back to discussing what needs to be buffed.  <br />
    Is anyone broken?  Does anyone have all advantage match ups? No...?  Well then let's stop complaining and discuss what lower characters need.  If you guys want to keep discussing nerfs fine.  However that opens up nerfs as a whole...you can't isolate it to one character.   It is challenging enough agreeing on what to buff, if we go into nerfs we'll never get anywhere.
    Actually according to the tier list that Emanuel put together Cammy's matchups are
    Cammy - Opponent
    7-3: 1 Matchup (Blanka) Though this should be 2 since Cammy Cody is often considered top 10 for worst matchup in the game. It's no Blanka vs Thawk or Sim vs Zangief borderline 8-2 but it's a solid 7-3 that relies on Cammy making playing overly reckless/dropping combos.
    6-4: 22 matchups (over half of the cast)
    5.5-4.5: 2 matchups
    5-5: 9 matchups
    4-6: 4 matchups (1 of which have been disputed since the list went up: Oni) I'd love to hear arguments about Balrog and Deejay beating her since every character with a dive kick except for Cammy is a 4-6 or 4.5-5.5 matchup for Deejay. And Cody is only a 5.5-4.5 matchup for Deejay while Cammy is supposedly 6-4. Either there is something I'm missing, or someone is being too conservative with their numbers.)

    ----

    Also Knut: Why would Deejay be 4-6 vs Honda? I mean I get Deejay's anti airs aren't the greatest but his fireball is really good on it's own and his crossup stuff seems like it'd be good against Honda. I'm not saying the number is wrong, I'm genuinely thinking there is something I'm not seeing since Honda is known to be shutdown pretty hard by just about any character with a fireball (even a mediocre one).
  • Ryuken9Ryuken9 Joined: Posts: 484Registered
    edited March 2013
    The low health excuses need to go away. Low health is irrelevant when you have this many tools, Seth completely destroys Gief since Vanilla despite the health difference.
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  • EternalEternal Joined: Posts: 1,954Registered
    edited March 2013
    Ryuken9 said:
    The low health excuses need to go away. Low health is irrelevant when you have this many tools, Seth completely destroys Gief since Vanilla despite the health difference.
    Low health is NOT irrelevant. It is a legitimate balance tool. The issue is that it's not a terribly effective balance tool as it not only isn't used to an extreme amount usually (except in the case of vanilla / super Seth) but if you have tools for every situation then it requires you to make a mistake. Balancing around players making a mistake or around difficulty of execution are not good ways to balance. At the top level there is very little in the way of mistakes (not non-existent of course, everyone is human) thus there is less opportunities to exploit the weakness of a character.

    If you fight against Dhalsim for instance (who is a low health character with distinct strengths and weaknesses beyond that.) You know that if you can get inside of his zoning he has a hard time as he has few good up close tools. You have a goal you can focus your gameplan on that goes beyond "I hope they let me hit them." or "I hope they drop a combo."

    Health is actually a good balance tool at mid/low level play where more mistakes occur that allow it to be exploited. Hence why every time a new game comes out, grapplers are considered top tier. Health allows for more mistakes and they do good damage. People haven't figured out the best uses for their large tool set or how to apply them to prevent situations that would allow them to be hit in the first place.
  • EmanuelbEmanuelb Joined: Posts: 1,255Registered
    edited March 2013
    Eternal said:
    Actually according to the tier list that Emanuel put together Cammy's matchups are
    Cammy - Opponent
    7-3: 1 Matchup (Blanka) Though this should be 2 since Cammy Cody is often considered top 10 for worst matchup in the game. It's no Blanka vs Thawk or Sim vs Zangief borderline 8-2 but it's a solid 7-3 that relies on Cammy making playing overly reckless/dropping combos.
    6-4: 22 matchups (over half of the cast)
    5.5-4.5: 2 matchups
    5-5: 9 matchups
    4-6: 4 matchups (1 of which have been disputed since the list went up: Oni) I'd love to hear arguments about Balrog and Deejay beating her since every character with a dive kick except for Cammy is a 4-6 or 4.5-5.5 matchup for Deejay. And Cody is only a 5.5-4.5 matchup for Deejay while Cammy is supposedly 6-4. Either there is something I'm missing, or someone is being too conservative with their numbers.)

    ----

    Also Knut: Why would Deejay be 4-6 vs Honda? I mean I get Deejay's anti airs aren't the greatest but his fireball is really good on it's own and his crossup stuff seems like it'd be good against Honda. I'm not saying the number is wrong, I'm genuinely thinking there is something I'm not seeing since Honda is known to be shutdown pretty hard by just about any character with a fireball (even a mediocre one).
    Well, this discussion would be better suited in the tier list thread :P . Regarding honda vs Dee Jay, Da Knut made a solid argument why Honda wins the match. The short version is - Dee Jay is unable to keep Honda out. Also, his fireball is not that good - blockstun/hitstun was nerfed in AE. Worth noting that Dee Jay also lose to Zangief. (I can make a more detailed analysis if you want) Regarding Cammy, Oni match was changed to 5-5 so now she has only 3 bad matches (I need to update the chart). Anyway, I can provide the arguments for cammy vs dee jay and balrog and honda vs dee jay, but maybe this would be better suited in the tier list thread.
    SSF4 AE v. 2012 - Tier List (v.2013) - http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/2879/tierlist2013.png

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  • ecoeco Joined: Posts: 27Registered
    what about expanding burning kick hitbox downward? i am asking this because burning kick mixups are crucial for viper and we are starting to see a lot of characters avoiding burning kick with crouching normals... and then punishing vipers landing hard... it doesnt seems fair, right? If viper does a burning kick it shoul always hit crouching oponents and, at the same time, viper shoul be save, right? thats supposedly one of the main reason why viper "is" that good, because of the burning kick.
  • Mr.PaVy-RDMr.PaVy-RD Joined: Posts: 1,271Registered
    Viper has an abusable move thats safe on block against everyone except SPD's(I think) ambiguous cross ups with burn kicks and you want to buff her burn kicks even more? lol.i wish capcom would make one of her moves punishable on block though :/
    I block better in Marvel than i do in Streetfighter :(

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  • Da KnutDa Knut Joined: Posts: 1,149Registered
    eco wrote: »
    what about expanding burning kick hitbox downward? i am asking this because burning kick mixups are crucial for viper and we are starting to see a lot of characters avoiding burning kick with crouching normals... and then punishing vipers landing hard... it doesnt seems fair, right? If viper does a burning kick it shoul always hit crouching oponents and, at the same time, viper shoul be save, right? thats supposedly one of the main reason why viper "is" that good, because of the burning kick.

    Are you serious?
  • EternalEternal Joined: Posts: 1,954Registered
    edited March 2013
    eco wrote: »
    what about expanding burning kick hitbox downward? i am asking this because burning kick mixups are crucial for viper and we are starting to see a lot of characters avoiding burning kick with crouching normals... and then punishing vipers landing hard... it doesnt seems fair, right? If viper does a burning kick it shoul always hit crouching oponents and, at the same time, viper shoul be save, right? thats supposedly one of the main reason why viper "is" that good, because of the burning kick.

    Burn kick is + on block for all air versions (even more so if done meaty. And many characters have no other defense against Viper at all. Hell, Cody can slide under her burn kick with c.MK but it's still considered 5.5-4.5 in Viper's favor. Giving Viper a tool like that would once again cause the problem of "risk vs reward" being "zero risk" "high reward" which is a pretty bad idea for balance IMO. A key factor in a fighting game should be choosing the right move for the right situation while also considering what moves your opponent might take. The more options that 1 move prevents the opponent from taking the stronger it becomes.
  • Mr.PaVy-RDMr.PaVy-RD Joined: Posts: 1,271Registered
    Viper has been top tier in every version of the game but people still want buffs lol
    I block better in Marvel than i do in Streetfighter :(

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  • OilforthewinOilforthewin Joined: Posts: 101Registered
    eco said:
    what about expanding burning kick hitbox downward? i am asking this because burning kick mixups are crucial for viper and we are starting to see a lot of characters avoiding burning kick with crouching normals... and then punishing vipers landing hard... it doesnt seems fair, right? If viper does a burning kick it shoul always hit crouching oponents and, at the same time, viper shoul be save, right? thats supposedly one of the main reason why viper "is" that good, because of the burning kick.
    http://wiki.shoryuken.com/Super_Street_Fighter_IV_AE/C._Viper Just look at the frame data for the air versions of the burn kick, then you can clearly see, how safe she is. I mean that avoiding with crouching normals is ok, it can be a better option than blocking those kicks and gives other characters better chances to fight against Viper.
    Hakan wins a match= His opponent didn´t know the matchup.(Nice excuse btw).
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