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Offical SRK AE rebalance Request Thread

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Comments

  • SuperstarSuperstar Joined: Posts: 146Registered
    Eternal said:
    snip
    Are you done? Come back when you want lighten the asshole tone.

    Emanuelb said:
    snip
    I've made my position clear. As contentious as it is, any nerf will dictate what what buffs we give to the rest. The nerfs myself and HNIC suggested doesn't change what has been discussed for everyone else. 
  • JulperoJulpero Joined: Posts: 343Registered
    Eternal said:

    Julpero said:
    I understand nerfing her but taking out pretty much every single Sako combo and making everything into a one frame link combo that isn't cr. HP, cr. MK... Surely unbiased and necessary nerfs 8-|
    Ok, how many combos does she lose? Seriously. List them because by my count she loses only the ability to link to c.HP off of EVERYTHING. No other links are lost. She still can link heavy close to heavy far crouching heavy to crouching heavy close medium to close heavy crouching heavy to crouching medium.

    95% of her combos are intact.
    Yes but why do you feel that she needs these arbitrary changes to her basic combos? I just don't see the point. I'd rather suggest that her frame advantage on block be changed and then nerf how much meter she builds from her normals.
    Gfwl: jholtta
    Psn: julpro

    ssf4 ae 2012: Yang, Rose, Gen
  • HNIC MikeHNIC Mike Joined: Posts: 4,571Registered
    i think she should get nerfed. but lets be smart about it so she doesnt end up as a bad character.

    im saying the way she works now is much more interesting than a version with weak ex strike worse frame traps and less health.

    leave her tools and make her stun output so it takes 4 big combos instead of 2 on low stun characters
    fuck AE ranked matches
  • EternalEternal Joined: Posts: 1,954Registered

    HNIC Mike said:
    i think she should get nerfed. but lets be smart about it so she doesnt end up as a bad character.

    im saying the way she works now is much more interesting than a version with weak ex strike worse frame traps and less health.

    leave her tools and make her stun output so it takes 4 big combos instead of 2 on low stun characters
    I am being smart about it. These are extremely small nudges, especially compared to the changes she received from Super to AE that made her top tier (though if you asked the Cammy forums at the time she was shit because TKCS was gone therefor she was bottom tier.)

    Here is one combo:

    cr.MP - cr.HP - c.MK - MK Spiral Arrow (WITHOUT a jump in)
    277dmg/485stun

    Now lets see: a low stun character has 900-950stun right? You'd have to cut the stun for all of those moves BY HALF to make it so that she stuns low-mid stun characters in 4 big combos. So let me get this straight, nerfing her cr.MP from 100 to 50stun, nerfing her cr.HP from 200 to 100stun, nerfing her cr.MK from 100 to 50stun nerfing her MK SA from 150stun to 75 is "smart and minor changes" nerfing her frame advantage by 1F that was increased by MORE THAN DOUBLE from Super to AE and making her EX Cannon Strike go from "safe on block no matter what and able to link into anything if done as a tiger knee" to "Safe on block no matter what and able to be linked into anything except itself if done as a tiger knee" suddenly bottom tier?

    I also notice how you keep adding "nerfing her health" yet not ONCE did I personally mention that. I was saying these nerfs by themselves would be enough. Hell I would even say doing that and reduce the startup by 10% on Spin Knuckle to make it a bit faster would be fine.

    As for Superstar. Sorry, I over reacted it's just that is literally the single dumbest reasoning for not changing something that I've seen in this entire thread bar none. "It's an EX move that costs meter and shouldn't be beaten by one button." Is an EXTREMELY myopic view of character balance and risk vs reward on the move as well as the strength of that move compared to other characters ways of getting in that aren't also completely safe for one bar from full screen.
  • The BreakerThe Breaker witchcraft works animu Joined: Posts: 1,458Registered
    edited March 2013
    nerfing the hit box on EX is the only thing that really _needs_ to be done. it costs meter to use, okay. it's also always + on block, leads to varying frame traps, can be TKd, can be done backwards, has tons of unblockable potential, and leaves more than enough time to score big damage on hit.

    could even give cammy's regular strike 30/40 meter distribution so she gets more chances to use it in exchange.

    also cammy will suck if she needs four big combos to stun someone
    if you want to approach it that way, tweak her combos so that she has to spend meter to stun
    I don't play games because I am a game.
  • HNIC MikeHNIC Mike Joined: Posts: 4,571Registered
    i didnt say bottom tier. but yes i think she would be much weaker if excs getss AAed clean by normals. also frame data makes a ton of difference. look how much people talk about fireballs when it comes down to just one frame of difference.

    i dont know what fat crouching character that combo works on fwiw. bu point taken.

    i was thinking more along the lines of cr.hp going to 100 stun. SA down to 100. and her mids going down to 60 or 70. also regular and ex cs down to 50.

    frame data and hitboxes have a much larger impact on a character than stun output imo.

    lastly im not talking about you in regards to her health. but i have seen it mentioned in the past few pages
    fuck AE ranked matches
  • EternalEternal Joined: Posts: 1,954Registered
    edited March 2013

    HNIC Mike said:
    i didnt say bottom tier. but yes i think she would be much weaker if excs getss AAed clean by normals. also frame data makes a ton of difference. look how much people talk about fireballs when it comes down to just one frame of difference.

    i dont know what fat crouching character that combo works on fwiw. bu point taken.

    i was thinking more along the lines of cr.hp going to 100 stun. SA down to 100. and her mids going down to 60 or 70. also regular and ex cs down to 50.

    frame data and hitboxes have a much larger impact on a character than stun output imo.

    lastly im not talking about you in regards to her health. but i have seen it mentioned in the past few pages
    Which fat crouching character? o... about 1/3rd of the cast.
    (honda,chun li,dictator,cammy,oni,yun,yang,blanka,fei long) (Also Rufus, Akuma, Gouken if you initiate with an EX Cannon Strike or a jump in)

    There is also this:
    cr.lp,cl.hp,cr.mk xx mk SA (except juri)
    227dmg/385stun


    cr.lp, cr.hp, far mp xx mk SA (everyone)
    236dmg 435stun

    Also, while you never see it because Cammy has so much other amazing stuff. She CAN link into sweep without anything fancy. Far LP or c.HP both will link to sweep.

  • cerberusfxcerberusfx Timekeeper Joined: Posts: 1,295Registered
    edited March 2013
    I did a mod with Cammy with the following changes: (note that I did that a long time ago and I wanted drastic changes to every character. Not only +10 damage here and there, less recovery frames here and there. I wanted to changed the way characters were played. So maybe you guys will find some ideas there and we finally call it a day)

    NORMALS////UNIQUE ATTACKS
    - Walk speed forward: slightly decreased by 0.005 (in Ono Akuma and Cammy = 0.055 so now Cammy will be at 0.05)
    - Walk speed backward: slightly decreased by 0.005 (in Ono Akuma = -0.04 and Cammy = -0.045 so now Cammy will be at -0.04)
    - Neutral jump: cancelable into canon strike
    - Back jump: cancelable into canon strike
    - Cr.HP: +20 damage (90->110). Increased pushback on hit. Cannot be linked with normals (typically cr.mk for example) anymore unless counter hit. Decreased block stun by 2F (+2F -> 0F) Super Cancelable
    - Cl.HP: reduced block stun by 5F (+2/+6 ->-3/+6)
    - Cl.MK: increased block/hit stun by 4F/1F (-6/-3 ->-2/-2)
    - Cl.LP: increased active frame by 1F (2F->3F)
    - All Far normals active frames = 2F
    - Far LP: +1F startup (3F->4F)
    - Cr.MP: reduced block stun by 2F (+3 -> +1) and hit stun by 1F (+6 -> +5)
    - Some Fierces and Roundhouse have their stun changed
    Cl.HK (200->150)
    Far HP (200->150)
    Far HK (200->150)
    - Front throw: damage reduced (140->130) stun reduced (130->120
    - Back throw: damage reduced (135->110) stun reduced (140->110)

    SPECIALS
    - Spiral Arrow: H: 2nd hit stun decreased to 70 (80+100 = 180 -> 80+70 = 130)
    - Canon spike:
        - L: [stun] on 3F and + decreased to (150->130)
        - M: damage increased to 110// [stun] on 3F and + decreased to (180->150)
        - H: damage increased to 120// [stun] on 3F and + decreased to (200->170)
    - Canon strike: increased hurtbox on bottom slightly
    - EX Canon strike: decreased block stun by 4F
    - hooligan combination: cancelable (at around 28F) into regular/EX Canon Strike from AE 2012. Added invincibility frames for EX Canon Strike

    - U1: Non-animation Ultra = 30*6+180 = 360 (was 30*6+210 = 390 before)
    - U1: Animation = 30*5+300 = 450 (was 30*5+330 before)


    --> I think the ability to link a medium attack -> high attack -> medium attack is a bit too much. so you need to score a counter hit with cr.HP if you want to connect it with cr.mk xx spiral

    --> since its kinda "easy" to setup dive kick setups with a back throw, I thought of nerfing his damage and stun and nothing else (She still cant guarantee that it will hit so I didn't want to change any of the frame data)


    Power is nothing without skill
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  • HNIC MikeHNIC Mike Joined: Posts: 4,571Registered
    edited March 2013
    wait why would taking 4 suck? for how often she lands her big combos, 4 seems fair.

    and those are the fat lower body characters. and this also illustrates the lol stun factor which i think prolly needs to halfed or close to it.
    fuck AE ranked matches
  • ShineboxShinebox Joined: Posts: 844Registered
    Decrease Cammy's forward walkspeed By .005

    Increase her throw range to .09
    Make MK Spiral arrow is an Untechable knockdown
  • Mr.PaVy-RDMr.PaVy-RD Joined: Posts: 1,271Registered
    Lol debating whether or not cammy should be nerfed but yang got nerfed into the ground without anybody complaining.theres no doubt in my mind she will get the same treatment as yang in 2013 if it does come out  
    I block better in Marvel than i do in Streetfighter :(

    3s-Yang/Urien/Dudley
    Ae2012-Yun/Yang/Seth/Ryu/Cody/Dudley
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  • EmanuelbEmanuelb Joined: Posts: 1,255Registered
    Lol debating whether or not cammy should be nerfed but yang got nerfed into the ground without anybody complaining.theres no doubt in my mind she will get the same treatment as yang in 2013 if it does come out  

    except AE yang was way stronger than v.2012 Cammy. He was arguably broken, while cammy is not. And nobody was complaining ? did you even play AE ?
    SSF4 AE v. 2012 - Tier List (v.2013) - http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/2879/tierlist2013.png

    SSF4 AE v. 2013 - updated Buff List: http://www.freeuploadsite.com/do.php?id=3721
  • m2thebradym2thebrady Joined: Posts: 519Registered
    One thing people don't usually note about vanilla AE is that it was only out a couple months and everyone knew Yang nerfs were coming. So people didn't have a lot of time to flesh out Yang's tricks and there was incentive not to do so since it was universally known he'd be weakened. Yun on the other hand had a much less steep learning curve so people could pick him up easier and win. But anyway that fellow above is just a broken a record when it comes to Cammy hating...
    Your false king is dead, bastard. He and all his host were smashed in seven days of battle. I have his magic sword. Tell his red whore.

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  • Mr.PaVy-RDMr.PaVy-RD Joined: Posts: 1,271Registered
    Everyone complained about yun not yang plus there werent that many yangs to begin with except chirithy and justin wong. i doubt yang was stronger than 2012 cammy 
    I block better in Marvel than i do in Streetfighter :(

    3s-Yang/Urien/Dudley
    Ae2012-Yun/Yang/Seth/Ryu/Cody/Dudley
    Your signature has been modifed, please read the rules.
  • The-OlympianThe-Olympian 4 the Glory of Gaea Joined: Posts: 1,705Registered
    nerf cammy while akuma wins tournaments. obviously it makes total sense!! 
    What of the Hunting, Hunter Bold? Brother, the Watch was Long and Cold.
    What of the Quarry ye went to Kill? Brother, He Crops in the Jungle Still.
  • JulperoJulpero Joined: Posts: 343Registered
    nerf cammy while akuma wins tournaments. obviously it makes total sense!! 
    Well that's not exactly Cammy's fault when there's not a player as good as Infiltration or Tokido playing Cammy.
    Gfwl: jholtta
    Psn: julpro

    ssf4 ae 2012: Yang, Rose, Gen
  • OilforthewinOilforthewin Joined: Posts: 101Registered
    Akuma wins more tournaments than Cammy, but keep in mind that these players, who main Akuma, are in generally better players than the Cammy mainers.

    Hakan wins a match= His opponent didn´t know the matchup.(Nice excuse btw).
    Hakan loses a match = He lost, because he is bottom tier.
    (This is what some people would say, if one of those happens)

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  • The BreakerThe Breaker witchcraft works animu Joined: Posts: 1,458Registered
    HNIC Mike said:
    wait why would taking 4 suck? for how often she lands her big combos, 4 seems fair.

    and those are the fat lower body characters. and this also illustrates the lol stun factor which i think prolly needs to halfed or close to it.
    If Cammy needed four big combos to stun people, everyone in the cast would die before she could stun them. A lot of games are over when someone gets opened up four times (against characters like Cammy, Rufus, Yun, Seth, Abel, Viper, Dudley, Cody if he can frame trap you somewhat safely, characters that have high damage command grabs with you in the corner, etc.)
    I don't play games because I am a game.
  • chubbyfingerzchubbyfingerz Joined: Posts: 267Registered
    Yeah you're right, it's not like Akuma has many tools...

    - Air fireball
    -Teleport
    -Massive combos
    -3f DP
    -Non EX 3-hit fireball
    -Dive kick
    -Throw/knockdown/combo demon flip mixup
    -Fastest walk speed in the game
    -Fast, high priority, high damage normals
    -Tatsu and air tatsu

    Tools that Akuma doesn't have:

    A hand gun
    Infinite lives
    Pepper spray


  • OilforthewinOilforthewin Joined: Posts: 101Registered
    edited March 2013
    Yeah you're right, it's not like Akuma has many tools...

    - Air fireball
    -Teleport
    -Massive combos
    -3f DP
    -Non EX 3-hit fireball
    -Dive kick
    -Throw/knockdown/combo demon flip mixup
    -Fastest walk speed in the game
    -Fast, high priority, high damage normals
    -Tatsu and air tatsu

    If you think this Akuma is nasty, then play against SF3:2I or SF4 Vanilla Gouki, those versions were better.
    Seriously, but don´t forget Akuma´s low health and stun bar.

    Cammy should get some tweaks, which doesn´t affect her much(No nerf for EX CS), maybe a bit lower damage and stun output or also lower her health but those link combos and the EX Cannon Strike should be kept.
    Hakan wins a match= His opponent didn´t know the matchup.(Nice excuse btw).
    Hakan loses a match = He lost, because he is bottom tier.
    (This is what some people would say, if one of those happens)

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  • NorieagaNorieaga FADC x ROFLCOPTER Joined: Posts: 2,990Registered
    Akuma may have tools but he is quite difficult to use. I don't think he has enough health to play the Ryu-style game all day, so you have to know your setups in order to maximize his effectiveness. There is nothing herp-derp about him. 
  • chubbyfingerzchubbyfingerz Joined: Posts: 267Registered
    edited March 2013
    There is a LOT of herp derp about him. His most basic tools are excellent and easy to use:

    - Air fireballs? HERP DERP
    - Great walkspeed? HERP DERP
    - 3f DP? HERP DERP
    -Teleport? DEEEEEERPP
    - Easy high-damage combos? HERP DERP DERP
    - Hadoken, chip hadoken, great sweet, SAFE dive kick?
    -Excellent normals? ( st. HK, cr. MP, cr. HK, you KNOW what they are) HERPPPPPPPPPPPP


    DERPPPPPP

    Won't you stop with the "Akuma requires tons of skill to play", NEWSFLASH : All characters require tons of skill to play at the absolute top level. But just because he has a TON of mixups and tools doesn't make him hard. You know what's hard? Characters that need needle-like precision to use the few tools they have in tough situations ( Makoto, Sakura) , and characters with extremely technical requirements to function at the most basic level ( Viper, Hakan, Gen)

    So won't all the Akuma players cut the crap already? Akuma is EASY to play, EASY to be good with, and just like everybody else is HARD to master. 

    Herp motherfucking derp
  • OilforthewinOilforthewin Joined: Posts: 101Registered
    edited March 2013
    @chubbyfingerz:

    You should thank CapCom that they removed this.
    Akuma was actually nerfed more than one time, btw guess why Akuma was,is and will be a good or solid character in most fighting games.
    Hakan wins a match= His opponent didn´t know the matchup.(Nice excuse btw).
    Hakan loses a match = He lost, because he is bottom tier.
    (This is what some people would say, if one of those happens)

    Steam profile:
    http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198066484611

  • VeseriusVeserius Paragon of Cyber-Athleticism Joined: Posts: 4,887Registered
    sometimes the topic moves, just because we are talking about a specific character in the balance thread doesn't mean we can't talk about other characters.

    But on the subject of ex moves not losing to normals and being plus on block... can i get that for all my characters? 
  • blufangblufang Return to dust Joined: Posts: 307Registered
     Akuma has more BS than anybody, and who cares how difficult he is to use?  Then we should make Gen the most powerful character in the game cause of his difficulty. There are reasonable Akuma fans...but look at Akuma threads, buff this or that....nerf nothing! A huge whining thread begging Capcom not to nerf Akuma, on Capcom unity.  Lots of fans of other high tier characters, are very reluctant to suggest any buffs, and even think some things should be nerfed...but the majority of Akuma fans seem to want the gap between him and other characters to be as large as possible.  

    Akuma and Seth are terrible character designs.  Akuma has virtually all the tools of Ryu plus a bunch more, and faster walk speed.  He has a great option to attack from any position, as well as some of the best escape options and sick damage.  Seth has divekicks, sonic booms, stretch limbs, awesome teleport, an awesome DP, SPD, tandem engine, and probably a bunch of other shit I'm forgetting.

    No one wants anything done to those two, cause somehow it is impossible to do anything with them...they are too complex, there is no way to balance them.  Yet let's nerf Cammy to the ground so these two can have an even easier time in tournaments.  


    If you play a character cause of her jiggle physics, you need to get out more.
  • chubbyfingerzchubbyfingerz Joined: Posts: 267Registered
    They can balance Akuma to an extent by

    - Reducing his walk speed
    - Increasing air fireball and teleport recovery
    - Nerfing demon flip somehow

    This would be enough. I mean come on, you watch Akuma play, 90% of the time he just flat out WALKS RIGHT UP and sweeps you. It's a tad ridiculous for a character with so many tools
  • Da KnutDa Knut Joined: Posts: 1,149Registered
    The only nerfs that Cammy needs is stun nerfs to ex cannon strike and cr.hp. And ex cannon strike needs less frame advantage on block. I'm ok with the hit stun but the block stun is ridiculously safe.

    Akuma should not be able to cancel dps after the first hit and he should be able to cancel teleports.

    Seth's health and endurance should go back to super status. Leave everything else alone.


  • Mr.PaVy-RDMr.PaVy-RD Joined: Posts: 1,271Registered
    edited March 2013
    Vanilla
    Ryu sagat too Strong
    Not enough characters

    Super
    Charge characters were too good 
    Feilong 
    Cammy
    Seth
    Akuma

    AE
    Yun & Yang Too strong
    Fei still too good


    AE2012
    Yun yang dont do enough damage
    Vortex is dumb
    Unblockables
    Cammy

    I wonder what will people complain about in ae2013.

    I block better in Marvel than i do in Streetfighter :(

    3s-Yang/Urien/Dudley
    Ae2012-Yun/Yang/Seth/Ryu/Cody/Dudley
    Your signature has been modifed, please read the rules.
  • blufangblufang Return to dust Joined: Posts: 307Registered

    Seriously, but don´t forget Akuma´s low health and stun bar.

    Yeah...except this is completely cancelled out by his high damage output.  Make him a low damage character and that would actually matter.


    If you play a character cause of her jiggle physics, you need to get out more.
  • chubbyfingerzchubbyfingerz Joined: Posts: 267Registered
    Not just that but a low margin for error is not a major factor when top level players at competing. They simply don't commit those errors often enough for it to matter.
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