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Offical SRK AE rebalance Request Thread

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Comments

  • chubbyfingerzchubbyfingerz Joined: Posts: 267Registered
    blufang said:
    He means probably James Chen, i mean this guy has a special relationship with Cammy. The description would fit to him.

    Well not just top level pros, I'm talking about other mid level players and non pro players who may have stuck with her for so long.  As for Akuma he is upper mid in 3s, and UMVC3 and CVS2 are not Street fighter games so they don't count.  SFA2 he was only mid in that, but most people have never even played this game.   



    . Anyway, can we improve the Gadoken just a little? It would make it much better in fireball fights, and for defense. Seriously. A few more active frames, especially in the beginning, would be perfect.
    What about making Gadoken work like Lilith's fireball in Vampire savior.  It is short like Dan's but it is a great pressure tool especially when she has an opponent in the corner.  

    Dan does well enough in the corner. The active frames are so terrible that fireballs go through it near its end and right at the beginning, making it dangerous to even counter a fireball with your own. A few more active frames make it less dangerous and also more useful against jump-ins.

    It would be a great tool for Dan without fundamentally altering the character's strength in any way.


  • chubbyfingerzchubbyfingerz Joined: Posts: 267Registered
    blufang said:
    He means probably James Chen, i mean this guy has a special relationship with Cammy. The description would fit to him.

    Well not just top level pros, I'm talking about other mid level players and non pro players who may have stuck with her for so long.  As for Akuma he is upper mid in 3s, and UMVC3 and CVS2 are not Street fighter games so they don't count.  SFA2 he was only mid in that, but most people have never even played this game.   



    . Anyway, can we improve the Gadoken just a little? It would make it much better in fireball fights, and for defense. Seriously. A few more active frames, especially in the beginning, would be perfect.
    What about making Gadoken work like Lilith's fireball in Vampire savior.  It is short like Dan's but it is a great pressure tool especially when she has an opponent in the corner.  

    I think because Dan does not need any more pressure tools. If anything, Dan's pressure is top tier. It is nuts. 

    What Dan DOES need are better mid-range normals ( st. MK is his only decent poke. emphasis on decent as it doesn't combo into jack, compare that to cammy's cr. HP) and a better Gadoken because as it stands the fireball is laughably useless.

    Now, I can live without the normals. I get it, Dan is supposed to suck, leave it as it is. 

    But making the Gadoken a little better means I can actually counter a fireball without milimetric precision ( it comes out, has no active frames, then has a couple, then again exists but is absolutely immaterial) , because often fireballs will go THROUGH the final or initia inactivel frames of it, which are like 50% of the damn fireball!

    If it was a little better it could be used a bit more like Ryu's hadoken to punish jump-ins at mid range. I feel that this would make Dan sooo much better without breaking him or fundamentall changing his game at all.

    Now, if only they'd give him his command throw back... but I won't go there. It would toss him ridiculously high in the tiers and essentially break him. Watch what Ixion does with Dan's pressure , the cl. HK frame traps, the l. Danku, and add a command throw there...  :D
  • chubbyfingerzchubbyfingerz Joined: Posts: 267Registered
    blufang said:
    He means probably James Chen, i mean this guy has a special relationship with Cammy. The description would fit to him.

    Well not just top level pros, I'm talking about other mid level players and non pro players who may have stuck with her for so long.  As for Akuma he is upper mid in 3s, and UMVC3 and CVS2 are not Street fighter games so they don't count.  SFA2 he was only mid in that, but most people have never even played this game.   



    . Anyway, can we improve the Gadoken just a little? It would make it much better in fireball fights, and for defense. Seriously. A few more active frames, especially in the beginning, would be perfect.
    What about making Gadoken work like Lilith's fireball in Vampire savior.  It is short like Dan's but it is a great pressure tool especially when she has an opponent in the corner.  

    Dan does well enough in the corner. The active frames are so terrible that fireballs go through it near its end and right at the beginning, making it dangerous to even counter a fireball with your own. A few more active frames make it less dangerous and also more useful against jump-ins.

    It would be a great tool for Dan without fundamentally altering the character's strength in any way.


  • HNIC MikeHNIC Mike Joined: Posts: 4,571Registered
    i agree maybe ex cs shouldnt stuff inv dps, but if she cant turn it into 600 stun or whatever, then im ok with everything else about it.

    it does cost meter and i think the value of the rest of her offensive tools goes down tremendously if excs is no good. like i problably dont care how fast she walks or how good her single hit buttons are if im not too afraid of excs bopping me for trying to play footsies vs her.

    i really dont get why her frames on her buttons need to be tweaked or see what the point of dropping her vitals by 50pts really is outside of just trying to make her worse overall either
    fuck AE ranked matches
  • m2thebradym2thebrady Joined: Posts: 519Registered
    Eternal said:


    However there is a such thing as too good of a tool. Cammy's EX Cannon Strike is one of them. It is a move that does everything she needs and has zero risk all reward and doesn't require any sort of actual thought on the part of the player.

    Doesn't that describe every move when used in the right context? I can think of plenty of situations where it's risky though- If your opponent is on the other side of the screen, they are mixing in neutral jumps/back jumps into their zoning, they are using focus attack well, certain AA's will make it harder to use.
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  • ShineboxShinebox Joined: Posts: 844Registered
    edited March 2013
    Posts double when you edit. Awesome
    Post edited by Shinebox on
  • ShineboxShinebox Joined: Posts: 844Registered
    edited March 2013

    GIVE KEN JAB SWEEEPPPP
    I would honestly rather have a faster walk speed than anything in his buff list. His walk speed is way too slow for his moveset. But since that is not going to happen I mentioned everything else.

    People "Oh but he has a step kick! and Kara throw" Kara throw changes your throw start up to 4 frames. Step kick is not safe, it has an 11 frame start up and is -2 on block, it can focused easily as well.
    Post edited by Shinebox on
  • VeseriusVeserius Paragon of Cyber-Athleticism Joined: Posts: 4,887Registered
    Eternal said:


    However there is a such thing as too good of a tool. Cammy's EX Cannon Strike is one of them. It is a move that does everything she needs and has zero risk all reward and doesn't require any sort of actual thought on the part of the player.

    Doesn't that describe every move when used in the right context? I can think of plenty of situations where it's risky though- If your opponent is on the other side of the screen, they are mixing in neutral jumps/back jumps into their zoning, they are using focus attack well, certain AA's will make it harder to use.
    No that doesn't describe every tool, especially not literally in every matchup.

    As Blanka player in my good matchups I have 3-4 tools that are effective, in my even to slightly disadvantage ones 1-2, and in my bad ones 0. Literally 0 tools that are effective at actually accomplishing anything of merit remotely safely. 

    Having a swiss army knife that costs meter is great, but when you already are among the toolsiest characters in the game, and other characters do not have such a swiss army knife, it creates character disparity and leads to the situation where the "high level" plan vs. Cammy with some characters is to hope that she drops a combo so you can max damage punish her, then hope that the ensuing mixup is good or that you can run away from her long enough for your lifelead to actually matter.

    I actually don't like nerfing, but I think if I could get behind one thing for cammy it would be a change to ex cs. I literally can't aa it with my character unless I have a down charge and a meter. How is that remotely reasonable when my character is designed around strong aa ability?
  • m2thebradym2thebrady Joined: Posts: 519Registered
    What are you defining as tools then? I say tools are any and everything a character can use. I can't imagine a match where Blanka has 0 tools.
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  • VeseriusVeserius Paragon of Cyber-Athleticism Joined: Posts: 4,887Registered
    edited March 2013
    There are good and bad tools(because in part they are just the moves your character has in conjunction with jump/dash/walk/etc.), but a tool that is defined as useful in a matchup has to have a spot where there are actually reasonable situations where it favors you to use it. 

    Now with a lot of the not top tier characters, in some matchups you don't have a situation you can force in neutral that favors you, and the only thing you have is trying to punish mistakes and capitalize on knockdowns.

    In Blanka vs. Cammy, she has more normals that beat my normals at all ranges, and the ones that tend to do slightly better are focus bait or ex cs bait, and her damage output and situation after landing a hit is much more favorable. Hitting buttons at any range in footsies is not in my favor, so you what do I do? My character does not have a projectile, i can't change my jump arc meaning that even if she whiffs a normal she has enough time to dp me most of the time if I jump, and even my risky options like slide/hop are actually in cammy's favor because my reward is 100-170 damage(and minimal mixup at best), while she gets sako combo in response to hop and at minimum a bad slide gets me hit with low forward drill. 

    Now if a land a knockdown my option tree opens up obviously, but to land that initial hit it's generally off of a bad guess by cammy(when she shouldn't have been guessing in the first place), a dropped combo, or them not knowing the matchup and doing the wrong things. 

    Knockdown option tree:
    sweep: cammy can ultra my high/low mixup on hit unless I ultra or use an ex, and do a 1(low), 2(high) jab link combo which is awkwardly timed and only useful for this matchup. It also resets the spacing so if I didn't have the lifelead after the combo, I now have to make another dumb guess. 

    electricity: I get kara hop forward into nothing and can't punish a backdash here without a guess slide

    hp ball/ex upball vs grounded cammy: if I attempt to dash/hop forward I get comboed

    slide: variable knockdown timing really hurts the ability to get a consistent mixup, spacing is generally bad for much of anything. Meaty pressure isn't bad, but not ideal especially if cammy has bar.

    throw/ultra/super: can safejump or make dp whiff with a 50/50, can't do full damage combos because of cammy hurtbox, making jumpin to 2in1 electricity my go to, leads to 200ish damage and no mixup if landed. Actually landing a throw is usually done as a punish because it's only 40-60 damage less than a normal bnb and leads to something instead of nothing. Cammy is too skinny for normal confirms to super/ultra to hit her, so they are also normally landed in punish situations, and since I'm using all my meter so I can actually AA her I only have super if the cammy player doesn't know that that upforward is gdlk.

    Now if I could actually AA EX CS, I could maybe protect my slim lifeleads for more than 3-4 seconds, and if my character could actually do combos that didn't suck i could actually hold offensive momentum and not be doing throws as punish and resetting to throw when I don't have the lifelead constantly. 

    tl;dr balance is really complicated.
  • SuperstarSuperstar Joined: Posts: 146Registered

    HNIC Mike said:
    i agree maybe ex cs shouldnt stuff inv dps, but if she cant turn it into 600 stun or whatever, then im ok with everything else about it.

    it does cost meter and i think the value of the rest of her offensive tools goes down tremendously if excs is no good. like i problably dont care how fast she walks or how good her single hit buttons are if im not too afraid of excs bopping me for trying to play footsies vs her.

    i really dont get why her frames on her buttons need to be tweaked or see what the point of dropping her vitals by 50pts really is outside of just trying to make her worse overall either
    I suggested a stun reduction for similar reverse effect for characters against her, w/Seth and Viper(both favorable MUs) in mind. Like how a reduction in stun of her moves will force her to complete an extra mixup, a character like Seth/Viper would have to do one less mixup to stun. 


    Veserius said:
    snip
    That's a Blanka problem. 
  • VeseriusVeserius Paragon of Cyber-Athleticism Joined: Posts: 4,887Registered
    edited March 2013
    Superstar said:
    That's a Blanka problem. 
    Oh for sure it is, but he asked me about tools not having universal usefulness, and It's like that for other characters as well in other matchups, including vs. cammy. Having something that is reliably close to the best move in any given matchup is absolutely a luxury that other characters do not have. I could have just talked about deejay losing to one button sometimes, but yeah.

    It's why I don't get why people really object to lower tier characters getting more ways to maintain momentum, it's good for the game.
  • The-OlympianThe-Olympian 4 the Glory of Gaea Joined: Posts: 1,705Registered
    Electricity beats strike. Focus beats strike. Ex up ball beats it clean. Fact: cammy can't frame trap blanka with ex tkcs (cr jab, ex tkcs ). His cr.tech beats it. If u take delay ex tkcs Blanka recovers in time to block (wasted meter). Only viable frame trap is clmp/clhp. Crhp completely whiffs on cr blanka.. Sigh. Cammy is bad for blanka ... Not because of ex strike.
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  • EternalEternal Joined: Posts: 1,954Registered
    edited March 2013
    Here is the thing, a tool SHOULD have multiple uses. For example: Cammy's EX Spiral Arrow. Not only is a tool that avoids fireballs, but it also can break armor up close, gets her in from far away, and causes a soft knock down to set up her mixups. However no ONE tool should perform everything that a character wants to do in every matchup. And especially a tool with such a lop sided risk vs reward. Meter isn't hard for cammy to come by since she gets multiple heavy attacks in many of her combos and she can frame trap / pressure with her heavy attacks which give her 30 meter on block. And she can safely builds meter from full screen using regular cannon spike (not SUPER effective mind you since she only builds 10 on a whiffed CS but its extremely safe.) And even a poorly spaced EX CS can lead to at least 200+ damage and a knockdown.

    Reducing the hitstun and the hitbox SLIGHTLY is hardly going to make the move unthreatening. 2F would mean that even in a frame perfect worst case scenario she is 0F on block. She still has a bunch of 3F normals and 4F normals that would beat any non-invincible move. Reducing the hitbox from 0.25x0.25 to 0.2x0.2 would simply make the move have the same size hitbox as non-ex cannon strike. She still would have the advantage of a much smaller hurtbox that would be completely covered by her hitbox.

    Reducing the frame advantage on 1-2 normals BY 1F and the startup on maybe 1 normal wouldn't kill her pressure or likely even remove any links. She has the fastest normals with a ton of advantange for her overall normals in the game. If you take all of her normals that are + on block and do the math the average startup is 3.4F. The average frame advantage is 2.1F

    (She has 10 normals that are + on block)

    Now lets look at other characters who are frame trap based:

    Sakura has 5 normals that are + on block with an average startup of 3.8 and an average frame advantage of 3.2

    Cody has 7 normals that are + on block (9 if you count f.MP and f.HK) the average startup is 4.85 (or 6F if you also count f.MP / f.HK) and an average frame advantage of 2.1 (or 1.88 if you include f.MP/f.HK)

    Guy has 10 normals that are + on block with an average startup of 5.4 and an average frame advantage of 2.5

    Dan has 6 normals that are + on block with an average startup of 4.83F and an average frame advantage of 2.3

    As you can see, Sakura and Cammy stand out waaaaaaay ahead of the pack in terms of normals. Now if we take 1F off of Cammy's close/far s.LP and 1F off of her close MP and increase the startup of her close HP by 1F and her crouching HP by 1F it looks like this:

    Now cammy has 9 normals that are + on block with an average startup of 3.6F and an average frame advantage of 2F she still has an incredibly good frame trap game. She loses out on c.MP - c.HP or c.LP - c.HP links and close MP to c.HP links. However she still has c.HP into itself or close HP into crouching HP but she can still do close HP into far HP or numerous other links. She also still can perform EVERY link she could if she lands a counterhit (which means CHs now are a bit more important to her as they open up new combos whereas previously counterhit or not she could link her most optimized combos against most of the cast.)

    You do that, maybe nerf the stun on c.HP from 200 to 175 or 180 and make a few adjustments to damage and she'd likely still be considered top 5 in the game easily.

  • The-OlympianThe-Olympian 4 the Glory of Gaea Joined: Posts: 1,705Registered
    Ex arrow is only usable in reaction to fireballs. To make it break armor you need to be up close for the 2hits. Which makes it -10 on block. Too risky/wasted meter. No sane cammy on this planet or otherwise will ever use ex arrow to break focus. It takes 36 or 38? Whiffed juuump strikes to build 1bar... That's over 38 seconds of the round. Reminds me when people complained about cammys tkcs meter gain. Invalid complain. Close lp is almost useless as it whiffs on almost every character in the game (crouching)
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  • VeseriusVeserius Paragon of Cyber-Athleticism Joined: Posts: 4,887Registered
    Electricity beats strike. Focus beats strike. Ex up ball beats it clean. Fact: cammy can't frame trap blanka with ex tkcs (cr jab, ex tkcs ). His cr.tech beats it. If u take delay ex tkcs Blanka recovers in time to block (wasted meter). Only viable frame trap is clmp/clhp. Crhp completely whiffs on cr blanka.. Sigh. Cammy is bad for blanka ... Not because of ex strike.
    minimum frames for electricity is 18 frames (unless you're buffering out of blockstun which is a huge gamble), assuming you whiff a 13 frame normal then do light electricity(which has the worst hitbox and commonly loses to ex srike) or ex which once again costs a meter. Doing electricity at random is a complete utter guess. You might as well hop or do a random slide because the risk:reward is actually fairly similar.

    Focus is a huge risk vs. cammy. Blanka is massively negative on a level one focus backdash(-10) or forward dash(-5), which means you're committing to hold focus for 28 frames for level 2 assuming you have perfect execution. The frames just don't add up to it being in Blanka's favor to do especially because he's only +1 after a level 2 forward dash on block, meaning that vs. cammy with 1 bar he's actually in a mixup situation. If you're in a situation where you absorb a divekick and have to release before level 2(because of threat of dp or w/e) you're pretty much screwed.

    cr.tech wins if you're mash cr.tech at a specific range and don't respect other frametraps, which is suicide vs. cammy. The risk:reward makes 0 sense. 

    Ex upball wins clean, but Blanka is already meter light in the matchup from not being able to safely whiff anything, and the fact that your chances of doing electricity pressure on cammy are lower than on most other characters. So while you have to use meter for ex upball, and ex rainbow, cammy is working at a huge meter surplus and you won't have an ex upball for every ex divekick that she has. And you need a downcharge, which makes rejump mixups with ex cs very powerful vs. Blanka after a knockdown because by forcing him to block the first jumpin you take away his ability to AA EX CS.

    tl;dr If you honestly don't think you can frame trap blanka with ex cs you're not doing something that the best cammy players do.
  • EternalEternal Joined: Posts: 1,954Registered
    Ex arrow is only usable in reaction to fireballs. To make it break armor you need to be up close for the 2hits. Which makes it -10 on block. Too risky/wasted meter. No sane cammy on this planet or otherwise will ever use ex arrow to break focus. It takes 36 or 38? Whiffed juuump strikes to build 1bar... That's over 38 seconds of the round. Reminds me when people complained about cammys tkcs meter gain. Invalid complain. Close lp is almost useless as it whiffs on almost every character in the game (crouching)
    I didn't say whiffed CS was an effective way to build meter safely. Actually I specifically stated it wasn't effective but it was safe. close LP whiffs on most crouchers? welcome to the world of ~30% of the fucking cast. Cody's close s.LP whiffs on crouchers AND standing. There are positions he can stand where it wont hit at all against anyone.

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=AecFtuza-cM

    Seriously you aren't helping the view of many cammy players being the most out of touch with the real world in the game. Cammy is top 3 in the game EASILY. She had a lot of issues in Super but they literally buffed half of her normals by DOUBLE and many of her other moves got buffed along side them.

    "EX Spiral Arrow doesn't break armor from full screen and if you use it up close it's unsafe. Therefor it is shit" That right there is the kind of thinking that is retardedly myopic. Instead of seeing how at different ranges the move has different uses a lots of strengths if used properly but requires actual proper footsies/spacing/reads to utilize without being punished as being how 80% of the cast has to play you zoom into "it doesn't do everything for me there for it's not worth mentioning."
  • JulperoJulpero Joined: Posts: 343Registered
    edited March 2013
    I don't get why you'd want to nerf her links. I understand nerfing EX dive, damage, stun, frame advantage on block and meter build but why links? Couldn't you just nerf the meter build of those normals instead of the normals itself. Links are pretty much the only interesting thing about her now. Also how is EX Spiral Arrow different from HK SA in any meaningful way other than going under fireballs? It's the EX version of a move so it gets that one benefit.
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  • blufangblufang Return to dust Joined: Posts: 307Registered
    Are we really still on Cammy nerfs?  Man...Cammy wins like every major with her brokenass moves, she has all advantage match ups...all u got to do is cannon spike all day...and you can do EX cannon spike all the time because she has infinite meter, and she is good at everything with no weaknesses....just an unstoppable blond bombshell of death.  She takes no thought to win with, a chimp can play her and go win EVO 2013.  She's the only character in the game with ridiculous things.  Wait none of this is true.

    She's not an MVC2 Sentinel, a SF3 3s Yun, or anything close...man the way some people are complaining you'd think she is ridiculously unfair and unbeatable.  
    If you play a character cause of her jiggle physics, you need to get out more.
  • chubbyfingerzchubbyfingerz Joined: Posts: 267Registered
    I think the points being discussed are very valid actually. Waaay out of my league, but very valid as far as I can understand them. Veserius makes excellent points reg. Blanka
  • GenistarGenistar Joined: Posts: 2,562Registered
    blufang said:
    Are we really still on Cammy nerfs?  Man...Cammy wins like every major with her brokenass moves, she has all advantage match ups...all u got to do is cannon spike all day...and you can do EX cannon spike all the time because she has infinite meter, and she is good at everything with no weaknesses....just an unstoppable blond bombshell of death.  She takes no thought to win with, a chimp can play her and go win EVO 2013.  She's the only character in the game with ridiculous things.  Wait none of this is true.

    She's not an MVC2 Sentinel, a SF3 3s Yun, or anything close...man the way some people are complaining you'd think she is ridiculously unfair and unbeatable.  
    You never know what could happen as the game progresses. She probably won't become 3s yun because that technically happened in 2011 but she could become close to that in the future.
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  • EternalEternal Joined: Posts: 1,954Registered
    edited March 2013

    blufang said:
    Are we really still on Cammy nerfs?  Man...Cammy wins like every major with her brokenass moves, she has all advantage match ups...all u got to do is cannon spike all day...and you can do EX cannon spike all the time because she has infinite meter, and she is good at everything with no weaknesses....just an unstoppable blond bombshell of death.  She takes no thought to win with, a chimp can play her and go win EVO 2013.  She's the only character in the game with ridiculous things.  Wait none of this is true.

    She's not an MVC2 Sentinel, a SF3 3s Yun, or anything close...man the way some people are complaining you'd think she is ridiculously unfair and unbeatable.  
    Almost everyone agrees she has some stupid shit. I make suggestions that remove the stupid shit while leaving her extremely strong. Suddenly people act like I'm saying "Make EX CS unsafe on block, make it so that all of her normals are back to super status, make it so that she does 200 damage BnBs at most. Remove invincibility on her dp. Make it so that she has no way to ever open people up period."

    Making it so that EX Cannon Strike is +12/+16 when done as a Tiger Knee and making it so that if done at maximum height the opponent is able to potentially contest the move if their reactions are on point it totally going to break her. Making it so that she has 95% of the same links but making it so that she has arguably the best frame traps in the game still but at least then she can't do 5 frame traps back to back while walking forward because her moves have so much advantage + her fast walk speed + the fastest normals in the game + the 2nd best stand/crouch tech counter move in the game (Rufus' dive kick is #1 but only because it doesn't require meter, the risk/reward is more in Cammy's favor for EX CS but it costs meter.)

    I hardly see how saying "hey why don't we reduce like 4 things that are extremely dominating by 10%" is unreasonable.

    Also, the only reason you don't see Cammy winning a ton of majors. Not THAT many people play her. Justin Wong specifically says her finds her boring. I'm sure there are a number of people who feel the same way. Someone did a breakdown before and posted it in the tier list thread showing that for the most part in recent tournaments the top 8 have had mostly B tier characters. A lot of top players have decided to stick by their mains and maybe pick up an alt for bad matchups. That doesn't make the top tier not top tier.
  • HNIC MikeHNIC Mike Joined: Posts: 4,571Registered
    im still not getting the nerfs to her normals. bringing up other characters doesnt really work for raw comparisons. the rest of their tools dont match up.

    anyway if you weaken ex strike cammy plays on the ground much more often. like i said she has single hit buttons and doesnt have safe 2 in 1s for footsies. then when she does get in with the gimped close normals, youre no longer afraid to press buttpns to push her back out.

    shes a much weaker chaacter with both those nerfs and it doesnt include the nerfs to her vitals that people still want to give her
    fuck AE ranked matches
  • SuperstarSuperstar Joined: Posts: 146Registered
    These EXCS nerfs are coming from the perspective of mid-tier characters. Most of which she beats soundly, so it makes sense. Other high tier either have ways to deal with it or their own tools they can take advantage of. 

    From my perspective why EXCS shouldn't be nerfed 
    1) Nerfing hit/blockstun. Won't change most MUs unless drastic reduction but w/even minor changes will make an arguable even Gief MU a nightmare.
    2) Nerfing hitbox. It's an EX move that costs meter. Shouldn't be beaten w/a one button move. Neither should it trade unless timed/spaced well. Each trade/stuff you're talking a ~300 dmg swing (~250 combo and ~50 for the AA) in addition to position. 
    3) It's the strength of her EXCS that makes her top tier. Nerfing it too much will drop her to mid-tier.
    4) For balance sake (assuming no other changes are made) removing her from top tier makes the game less balanced not more from a tournament perspective whom players tend to gravitate towards top tier. Look at the consensus top 5: Cammy/Akuma/Fei/Seth/Adon. Every single one of them has an unfavorable MU w/in that 5. Taking Cammy out removes Akuma's.
  • KomatikKomatik Card demon Joined: Posts: 780Registered
    Cammy has a bad matchup in the top 5?
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  • SuperstarSuperstar Joined: Posts: 146Registered
    Fei Long.
  • EternalEternal Joined: Posts: 1,954Registered
    edited March 2013
    HNIC Mike said:
    im still not getting the nerfs to her normals. bringing up other characters doesnt really work for raw comparisons. the rest of their tools dont match up.

    anyway if you weaken ex strike cammy plays on the ground much more often. like i said she has single hit buttons and doesnt have safe 2 in 1s for footsies. then when she does get in with the gimped close normals, youre no longer afraid to press buttpns to push her back out.

    shes a much weaker chaacter with both those nerfs and it doesnt include the nerfs to her vitals that people still want to give her
    Once again, suddenly 1F more recovery = gimped? Here let me break it down

    Close standing LP +1F recovery makes it +3F on block +6F on hit.
    Close standing MP +1F recovery makes it 0F on block +5F on hit
    Increasing startup on close s.HP by 1F makes it 5F startup +2F on block +6F on hit
    And increase crouching HP by 1F startup making it 7F +2F on block +7F on hit.

    Now you're telling me doing that and suddenly her normals aren't scary? Let's see. close MP - c.LK 3F frame trap. Close HP to close HP 3F frame trap. Crouching MP to Crouching MP 2F frame trap. Crouching LP to close HP 2F frame trap. crouching LP to crouching HP 4F frame trap. Close LP to crouching MP 2F frame trap. She'd still have great frame traps, great normals, great footsies and tons of frame advantage on block/hit and the fastest normals in the game.

    "2) Nerfing hitbox. It's an EX move that costs meter. Shouldn't be beaten w/a one button move. Neither should it trade unless timed/spaced well. Each trade/stuff you're talking a ~300 dmg swing (~250 combo and ~50 for the AA) in addition to position. "

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH omfg HAHAHAHAHA.

    "EX meter shouldn't be beaten with 1 button" HAHAHAHAHA omfg. wow. Just wow.

    I guess it's a good thing that you can't jab Blanka out of EX Rolling. OR Honda out of EX Headbutt or Cody out of EX Ruffian. Or Makoto out of EX Hayate or seriously fucking 95% of EX moves in the game. Wow just I'm literally stunned at the stupidity of that comment. 300 damage trade? How many characters can do 300 off of a traded anti air without ultra? Hell I'd say at least half the cast couldn't do it WITH ultra thanks to their anti air options causing an air reset.

    Guess what, Cammy is the only dive kick / frame trap character that DOESN'T have a hard time with Gief.

    Removing her from the top tier? Who said anything about removing her from the top tier? The changes I listed if done on their own would hardly remove her from the top tier she'd still probably end up top 5. Fei didn't leave the top tier and he was nerfed much harder. Yun was nerfed a fuck ton and people still list him as top 10.

    2F less hitstun and reducing the hitbox on EX CS so that it is still outside of her hurtbox is hardly going to make EX CS not good. The move would still be safe from ANYWHERE ANY HEIGHT ANY ANGLE AND DISTANCE it would still beat a large majority of anti airs and air 2 airs. It just would be slightly less stupidly good. You know how big the hitbox is on Yang's MK Dive kick? 0.1x0.1. The hitbox on Akuma's dive kick? 0.1x0.3 tall (and only a tiny sliver of it goes outside of his hurtbox). The hitbox on Cammy's EXCS IS BIGGER THAN THE HITBOX ON BISONS' EX HEADSTOMP. Bigger than Gen's EX Ouga. Bigger than Sagat's EX Tiger Knee. Seriously. It's big and I'm just saying "make it a little bit smaller" and you are all acting like she is teetering on the edge of top tier. Just barely there. When most top players are saying she is unquestionably the best character in the game.
  • EmanuelbEmanuelb Joined: Posts: 1,255Registered
    HNIC Mike said:
    im still not getting the nerfs to her normals. bringing up other characters doesnt really work for raw comparisons. the rest of their tools dont match up.

    anyway if you weaken ex strike cammy plays on the ground much more often. like i said she has single hit buttons and doesnt have safe 2 in 1s for footsies. then when she does get in with the gimped close normals, youre no longer afraid to press buttpns to push her back out.

    shes a much weaker chaacter with both those nerfs and it doesnt include the nerfs to her vitals that people still want to give her

    Man, weren't you one of those who advocated nerfs for balance ? I remember when I was saying no nerfs and you, Superstar and Swedish Chef advocated nerfs :P

    I knew if we go into this teritory there will be blood. I like how before the cammy nerf issue it was all peace and quiet here, everybody was getting buffs, everybody happy. Now suddenly this thread erupted. 
    SSF4 AE v. 2012 - Tier List (v.2013) - http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/2879/tierlist2013.png

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  • JulperoJulpero Joined: Posts: 343Registered
    I understand nerfing her but taking out pretty much every single Sako combo and making everything into a one frame link combo that isn't cr. HP, cr. MK... Surely unbiased and necessary nerfs 8-|
    Gfwl: jholtta
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    ssf4 ae 2012: Yang, Rose, Gen
  • EternalEternal Joined: Posts: 1,954Registered

    Julpero said:
    I understand nerfing her but taking out pretty much every single Sako combo and making everything into a one frame link combo that isn't cr. HP, cr. MK... Surely unbiased and necessary nerfs 8-|
    Ok, how many combos does she lose? Seriously. List them because by my count she loses only the ability to link to c.HP off of EVERYTHING. No other links are lost. She still can link heavy close to heavy far crouching heavy to crouching heavy close medium to close heavy crouching heavy to crouching medium.

    95% of her combos are intact.
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