64

Offical SRK AE rebalance Request Thread

1140142144145146

Comments

  • cerberusfxcerberusfx Timekeeper Joined: Posts: 1,295Registered
    I just want cammy to be able to think what she has to do instead of: "lemme throw this out here and see if it works"
    Power is nothing without skill
    R.I.P Joshua Colon (sksksksksk222)
    **Oh god images in signatures--not approving at all >_>!**
  • EmanuelbEmanuelb Joined: Posts: 1,255Registered
    edited March 2013


    Don't you think you'd kill Rufus's viability if you nerfed his TC > ultra? If you did that I'd want a buff on something else like damange or stun on galactic tornado?
     


    I never sugested a nerf to Rufus tc-ultra (someone else did). At worst for Rufus I would see a dmg reduction for U1 (40-50 less dmg). But I dropped this idea too, I think Rufus should be left alone.

    HNIC Mike said:
    i kinda get the feeling some people want cammy mid or low tier. i just want her not retarded

    Yep, that's the problem. I still think this version of the game is quite well balanced, so I really don't think nerfs are necesary. Reduce her health by 50, buff the rest of the cast, and call it a day. I think this game needs a little crazyness, there's no need to make it too tame.
    SSF4 AE v. 2012 - Tier List (v.2013) - http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/2879/tierlist2013.png

    SSF4 AE v. 2013 - updated Buff List: http://www.freeuploadsite.com/do.php?id=3721
  • Spirited_AwaySpirited_Away Joined: Posts: 304Registered
    You guys have to remember Cammy got more easy mode unblockable setups than any character in the game and she had them since Vanilla but people discovered them by AE and most of them work anywhere on screen that is IMO a major triumph card for a Cammy player. A feature of AE2013 will be a "No More Unblockables" system tweak, that  will probably reduce Cammy's advantages by %25.

    I really don't want Cammy to change in AE2013, besides giving her frame disadvantages on block for EX CS depending on how high it hits. We can be sure her stun power will be lower.

    But who known it's Capcom and they will nerf the crap out of the top 3 :(
  • EternalEternal Joined: Posts: 1,954Registered
    So those that want to nerf EX Cannon Strike. Right now at the maximum height you are at aprox +9F on hit. even hitting an opponent at the top of Ryu's head from the peak of her jump nets you +8~+9F on hit. that translates to aprox +5F on block at the absolute WORST.
  • blufangblufang Return to dust Joined: Posts: 307Registered
    Maybe I'm alone on this, but again I think with all the buffs given to everyone else you don't have to change Cammy at all.  Again she does have a lot of great things, and some ridiculous things....but so does Akuma and so does Seth and so does Sakura.  

    Also even though I guess this shouldn't matter...Cammy sucked in ST, and was not very good in SFA3.  Finally players who have stuck with her for 20 years (since Super street fighter 2), with tears, pain, anguish playing an awful uncompetitive character are rewarded with Cammy getting her day to shine.  So no, I don't want to see her out of top tier or bottom tier like she is in every other game.  I'm sick of seeing Akuma in the top tier since he resides there in every Street fighter game he's been in (except 3rd strike, though he is certainly well above average even in that)...so I certainly wouldn't mind him dropping out of the top tier once.  It's like Eddie in Guilty gear...the rest of the top tiers always fluctuate but somehow he is always at the top in every game.

    On Rose...I really like the tools she has,  It is unfortunate that non EX soul throw doesn't have that many uses (well in Soul Satellite juggle you can use it there)...but other than she is extremely well designed.  Her damage is low...I don't know how much to increase this or that, but I think a significant damage boost would help her out a ton.  


    If you play a character cause of her jiggle physics, you need to get out more.
  • EmanuelbEmanuelb Joined: Posts: 1,255Registered
    Seth and Akuma have the worst health in the game, though, so they need to play perfect - one mistake and it's over. Cammy doesn't have this, and this makes a big difference.

    Also, what players stuck with cammy for 20 years ? Chi Rhitty, Banbaban and Kindevu, that picked her in v.2012, because yun/yang weren't derp anymore ?
    SSF4 AE v. 2012 - Tier List (v.2013) - http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/2879/tierlist2013.png

    SSF4 AE v. 2013 - updated Buff List: http://www.freeuploadsite.com/do.php?id=3721
  • OilforthewinOilforthewin Joined: Posts: 101Registered
    edited March 2013
    He means probably James Chen, i mean this guy has a special relationship with Cammy. The description would fit to him.

    blufang said:

    Also even though I guess this shouldn't matter...Cammy sucked in ST, and was not very good in SFA3.  Finally players who have stuck with her for 20 years (since Super street fighter 2), with tears, pain, anguish playing an awful uncompetitive character are rewarded with Cammy getting her day to shine.  So no, I don't want to see her out of top tier or bottom tier like she is in every other game.  I'm sick of seeing Akuma in the top tier since he resides there in every Street fighter game he's been in (except 3rd strike, though he is certainly well above average even in that)...so I certainly wouldn't mind him dropping out of the top tier once.  It's like Eddie in Guilty gear...the rest of the top tiers always fluctuate but somehow he is always at the top in every game.


    http://wiki.shoryuken.com/Cammy_(ST)#Introduction
    Read this to see, why Cammy was bad back in ST.
    The zoning game was strong back then and poor Cammy didn´t had good tools to around it.
    http://curryallergy.blogspot.de/2009/08/super-diagram-turbo-version-3.html
    That 0-10 match up vs E.Honda.

    The metagame of AE2012 is much more favorable for Cammy and her tools and normals have really improved in this game.

    If you don´t want to play a game with Akuma as top tier, then play SFA2,MvC2,SF3:3rd Strike,CvS2, in most of these games, he is more a mid tier character, in UMvC 3 he has a good assist, but he gets easily mauled by most characters, especially by the queen and there are some other aspects that makes it hard for him to be a great character in this game.
    But keep in mind, he has a well rounded character design(beside health and stun bar) that enables him to react to nearly every situation very easy, so in other words Akuma will be always a solid character, but not really in Marvel games.
    Here the proof(this tier list is made to be a joke, but ....):


    I also can guarantee you, other games have some aspects that makes people cry and salty(Salt Fist), very easily.
    Hakan wins a match= His opponent didn´t know the matchup.(Nice excuse btw).
    Hakan loses a match = He lost, because he is bottom tier.
    (This is what some people would say, if one of those happens)

    Steam profile:
    http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198066484611

  • EternalEternal Joined: Posts: 1,954Registered
    One funny thing is that if you go and look at ST Cammy's hitboxes. She is the only ST character that has alot hitboxes in SF4 that are almost identical. What is interesting about that is how it shows that balance isn't a linear thing. A character's strengths are determined by the strengths of those around them (E.G. 2000 health isn't high health in a game where most characters have 3000 health, but it is high health in a game where most characters have 1000 health.)

    In ST A LOT of characters hitboxes are rediculous by today's standards (especially jumping attacks) which meant that by comparison Cammy had pretty shitty hitboxes in ST. However by comparison now she has really good hitboxs on those very same moves that had bad hitboxs before because everyone elses hitboxes got significantly worse over the years while many of hers only changed slightly (some got a lot worse but many of her hit boxes barely changed.)

    It isn't complaint, just an interesting observation on how the balance of a game is a lot more difficult to pin down to just frames, hit boxes, health, ect.
  • Spirited_AwaySpirited_Away Joined: Posts: 304Registered
    edited March 2013

    Eternal said:
    One funny thing is that if you go and look at ST Cammy's hitboxes. She is the only ST character that has alot hitboxes in SF4 that are almost identical. What is interesting about that is how it shows that balance isn't a linear thing. A character's strengths are determined by the strengths of those around them (E.G. 2000 health isn't high health in a game where most characters have 3000 health, but it is high health in a game where most characters have 1000 health.)

    In ST A LOT of characters hitboxes are rediculous by today's standards (especially jumping attacks) which meant that by comparison Cammy had pretty shitty hitboxes in ST. However by comparison now she has really good hitboxs on those very same moves that had bad hitboxs before because everyone elses hitboxes got significantly worse over the years while many of hers only changed slightly (some got a lot worse but many of her hit boxes barely changed.)

    It isn't complaint, just an interesting observation on how the balance of a game is a lot more difficult to pin down to just frames, hit boxes, health, ect.
    You need to remember back in ST the AA's were light years more powerful than SF4's, the footsies were better, walk speeds were not "turtle mode" slow and the game itself wasn't "Knockdown & Setup OS" oriented like SF4.

    There are many variables that differ ST from SF4.
  • SuperstarSuperstar Joined: Posts: 146Registered
    edited March 2013

    Post edited by Superstar on
  • SuperstarSuperstar Joined: Posts: 146Registered
    edited March 2013

    Post edited by Superstar on
  • SuperstarSuperstar Joined: Posts: 146Registered
    edited March 2013

    Post edited by Superstar on
  • SuperstarSuperstar Joined: Posts: 146Registered
    edited March 2013

  • SuperstarSuperstar Joined: Posts: 146Registered
    Eternal said:
    So those that want to nerf EX Cannon Strike. Right now at the maximum height you are at aprox +9F on hit. even hitting an opponent at the top of Ryu's head from the peak of her jump nets you +8~+9F on hit. that translates to aprox +5F on block at the absolute WORST.
    No. Look again.

    HNIC Mike said:
    i kinda get the feeling some people want cammy mid or low tier. i just want her not retarded
    That's exactly what most people want. Either persistently posting wrong info or posters saying they want Cammy to get the "Yang treatment" just so her forum will be salty. Not bc she's too strong. Not bc of balance. But bc of vindictiveness.

    Emanuelb said:
    Yep, that's the problem. I still think this version of the game is quite well balanced, so I really don't think nerfs are necesary. Reduce her health by 50, buff the rest of the cast, and call it a day. I think this game needs a little crazyness, there's no need to make it too tame.
    If we're only nerfing Cammy I say reduce stun by 50 and reduce cr HP stun by 50 as M2 suggested. Gotta aim for different target if we're gonna only nerf her. 
  • EternalEternal Joined: Posts: 1,954Registered
    edited March 2013
    Superstar said:
    Eternal said:
    So those that want to nerf EX Cannon Strike. Right now at the maximum height you are at aprox +9F on hit. even hitting an opponent at the top of Ryu's head from the peak of her jump nets you +8~+9F on hit. that translates to aprox +5F on block at the absolute WORST.
    No. Look again.


    Unless her frame data on her close s.HK is wrong (9F) startup then no I'm not wrong. I spent around an hour just doing Cannon Strike from different angles/heights before I posted that. And I just checked again. I can link her close s.HK against Ryu doing EX Cannon Strike from any jump (even a crossup EX CS) at max height. It feels like a 1F link but it can be done consistently. I may be wrong about the blockstun (I just took the hitstun and subtracted 4 since that is what it is on the wiki. I admit I didn't test the block stun) but my statement is correct.

    Note I'm only talking about EX not regular cannon strike. Even taking into account a margin of error on my part for PERFECTLY hitting him dead center on the top of his head and at the peak of Cammy's jump she is at least +7F as I never dropped an attempt to land a sweep after EX CS. +7F is enough to basically do anything she wants still except link into another EX CS or directly into ultra.

    Hell, even if she managed to hit on the first active frame, and then SOMEHOW stay in the air for an additional 10F before landing (which is basically impossible thanks to the physics of the move) and then you have the 4F of landing recovery. SHE STILL is +4F on hit. That is mathematically the worst possible situation using the frame data and an impossible scenario.
  • superlollosuperlollo S Tier Joined: Posts: 2,550Registered
    I'm quite sure that if ex cs gets blocked at max height (or slightly below) you can get reversaled with a dp when starting a block string with her c.lp. This means it's most likely <+3

    Things that should be patched:
    - People that constantly complain that there should be a patch.

    by. J.Scogz
  • EternalEternal Joined: Posts: 1,954Registered
    edited March 2013

    I'm quite sure that if ex cs gets blocked at max height (or slightly below) you can get reversaled with a dp when starting a block string with her c.lp. This means it's most likely <+3

    It's a block string: (if you look closely you'll see every time she gets 1 c.LP blocked no matter how much I mash (then I usually get the reversal, probably didn't mash the c.LP enough to keep it +3F on block when I recorded her)



    Even in this scenario she is still at minimum +3-4F on block which would be +7-8F on hit
  • chubbyfingerzchubbyfingerz Joined: Posts: 267Registered
    This is a really interesting discussion. Cammy is ridiculous though. 

    Anyway, can we improve the Gadoken just a little? It would make it much better in fireball fights, and for defense. Seriously. A few more active frames, especially in the beginning, would be perfect.
  • blufangblufang Return to dust Joined: Posts: 307Registered
    He means probably James Chen, i mean this guy has a special relationship with Cammy. The description would fit to him.

    Well not just top level pros, I'm talking about other mid level players and non pro players who may have stuck with her for so long.  As for Akuma he is upper mid in 3s, and UMVC3 and CVS2 are not Street fighter games so they don't count.  SFA2 he was only mid in that, but most people have never even played this game.   



    . Anyway, can we improve the Gadoken just a little? It would make it much better in fireball fights, and for defense. Seriously. A few more active frames, especially in the beginning, would be perfect.
    What about making Gadoken work like Lilith's fireball in Vampire savior.  It is short like Dan's but it is a great pressure tool especially when she has an opponent in the corner.  
    If you play a character cause of her jiggle physics, you need to get out more.
  • AmigoOneAmigoOne Joined: Posts: 1,029Registered
    oh god that video 

    EX CS is just precious isn't it
  • SuperstarSuperstar Joined: Posts: 146Registered
    Eternal said:

    Even in this scenario she is still at minimum +3-4F on block which would be +7-8F on hit
    Watch carefully. See where it hits. 
  • GenistarGenistar Joined: Posts: 2,562Registered
    She is actually hitting ryu at the shoulder.
    SSF4AE:Zangief


    VF5FS: Sarah
    Your signature has been modifed, please read the rules.
  • EternalEternal Joined: Posts: 1,954Registered
    Superstar said:
    Eternal said:

    Even in this scenario she is still at minimum +3-4F on block which would be +7-8F on hit
    Watch carefully. See where it hits. 

    Here is the math. Her maximum jump height is 1.568 on a vertical leap

    Velocity = 0.2, Acceleration = -0.012
    1F 0.188
    2F 0.176
    3F 0.164
    4F 0.152
    5F 0.14
    6F 0.128
    7F 0.116
    8F 0.104
    9F 0.092
    10F 0.080
    11F 0.068
    12F 0.056
    13F 0.044
    14F 0.032
    15F 0.020
    16F 0.008
    17F -0.004

    1.568-1.576 (occurs between 16F and 17F)

    Her EX Cannon Strike moves her downward at this speed:
    Velocity -0.05 Acceleration -0.01
    (first frame where physics occur is on 12F)
    Current Height: 1.568

    1F 1.508
    2F 1.438
    3F 1.358
    4F 1.268
    5F 1.168
    6F 1.058
    7F 0.938
    8F 0.808
    9F 0.668
    10F 0.518
    11F 0.358
    12F 0.188
    13F grounded recovery
    14F grounded recovery
    15F grounded recovery
    16F grounded recovery
    17F Able to perform actions


    So you are correct. At the absolute frame perfect height perfect hitbox perfect situation she'd be +2F on block. You literally have to WORK to make it still safe. If you are even 1F off on your maximum height dive kick against a standing opponent that hit's them at their absolute highest hitbox position then the move is +3F on block or better. The fact you'd need to basically be at the exact right position/height and the opponent has to be at the exact right position / state for a move with a dominating hitbox that can be performed from any height, any jump, any distance, and moves extremely fast, causes chip for it to STILL BE +2F ON BLOCK makes this move fucking terrible.

    Seriously though, the move needs a nerf as does a number of Cammy's normals. Nothing MAJOR. Honestly I think reducing the frame advantage on EX Cannon Strike by 2F and reducing the hitbox size from 0.25x0.25 to 0.2x0.2 (the same size as a regular cannon strike but with better position + smaller hurtbox the move is still going to beat a lot of anti airs.) Reducing the frame advantage on EX CS by 2F would mean she is still always safe and even a bad EX CS is unpunishable and/or actually leads to frame traps. Plus at minimum height she'd still be able to do EX CS - Ultra 1 as it would be +12/+16. However it would make it a little less derpy to counter at max height, and at minimum height she'd no longer be able to do EX CS - EX CS - EX CS - EX CS (she needs +17F on hit for TKCS to combo into itself.)


  • houzi22houzi22 Joined: Posts: 162Registered
    edited March 2013
    Gen`s rebalance

    Less push back   the first hit of the hp hands so the second hit will not miss. So it will be harder to get punishment.
    I don`t care if it lead to the nurf the damage of SC+UC.


    Pc live id:MediatedGrunt4
  • HNIC MikeHNIC Mike Joined: Posts: 4,571Registered
    i dont see whats wrong about cammy keeping everything in place as long as it takes her more openings to stun and kill.

    is it that bad for a character to have good tools?
    fuck AE ranked matches
  • Wisdom_in_silenceWisdom_in_silence Joined: Posts: 19Registered
    I think the game is very well balanced. In fact, my only gripe with it is online lag. SSF4 AE is the best fighting game this gen. Arguably, the best fighting game since Soul Calibur on the Sega Dreamcast. Period.
  • EternalEternal Joined: Posts: 1,954Registered
    edited March 2013
    HNIC Mike said:
    i dont see whats wrong about cammy keeping everything in place as long as it takes her more openings to stun and kill.

    is it that bad for a character to have good tools?
    Of course not, if anything one problem with balance right now is that a lot of the cast only have 1 or 2 good tools that only cover very specific situations where as the very top tier often has 4 - 5 good tools that allow them to cover a wide variety of situations.

    However there is a such thing as too good of a tool. Cammy's EX Cannon Strike is one of them. It is a move that does everything she needs and has zero risk all reward and doesn't require any sort of actual thought on the part of the player. This isn't to say the Cammy player isn't thinking (you get more out of it with proper spacing / timing / mixing it up than you do without thinking.) However EX Cannon Strike is literally a move there is never a bad time to use it. You can't space it to make it unsafe, even at worst it can be linked out of on hit and is + on block. It can be performed anywhere on the screen. It can't be whiff punished almost at all (only 4F recovery) the hitbox / fall speed / ability to alter when she performs it and the unpredictibility factor means a lot of characters can't ever hope to beat it on reaction and have to try and beat it preemptively by throwing out a move.

    It performs everything she wants, it gets her in, it beats traditional zoning/footsies, it frame traps, it beats throws, it starts up block strings or tic throw setups, it can cross up or not, if done to hit below the shoulder she recovers fast enough to counterhit a focus attack or just block it. And even if someone with a move to beat the attack hits her, she is airborne and many characters don't have great punishes against airborne foes. She probably will trade her 80 damage EX CS with the potential to do well over 300 damage against the opponents maybe 60-100 damage option that even if they FADC'd the move they likely wouldn't break 180-200 on a punish.

    I don't think Cammy needs to be nerfed into the ground by any means. I think she needs a couple of damage / stun tweaks. 1F more recovery on one or two normals that went up by +3 when they buffed her from Super to AE and maybe make 1 or 2 normals 1F slower (As long as they don't break key BnB's but instead maybe turn 2F links into 1F links) make EX CS have 2F less hitstun (not more recovery, leave it at 4F recovery when she hits the ground just reduce the hitstun) making it +12F on block/+16F on hit and a slightly smaller hitbox so that characters who rely on normals to anti air don't have their moves beat outright so often but instead end up trading (Bison, Juri, Rose, ect.)

    A handful of small nerfs that leaves her very very strong still.
  • Mr.PaVy-RDMr.PaVy-RD Joined: Posts: 1,271Registered
    Dont forget her EASY unblockables 
    I block better in Marvel than i do in Streetfighter :(

    3s-Yang/Urien/Dudley
    Ae2012-Yun/Yang/Seth/Ryu/Cody/Dudley
    Your signature has been modifed, please read the rules.
  • ShabroutShabrout Joined: Posts: 621Registered
    Why people keep talking about 4f recovery like it was universal punish time and true.
    Isn't this http://wiki.shoryuken.com/Super_Street_Fighter_IV/Game_Systems/Landing_Frames_Trip_Guard
    the truth about landing frames and ability to tech, block, move after a air normal ?

    According to this there's 2 true landing recovery frames (unable to block and literally stuck here) after an air normal, and 2 other frames when you can block but you still are stuck here.

    So to sum up, air normal open a punish window of only 2 frames for the opponent. And you can tech throw the whole time (4 full frames).

    Only this explanation made me realise why meaty safe jumps can only be done against 4 framers and more. So I assume it's solid.
    Training room Tools : bit.ly/ssfivtool
  • chubbyfingerzchubbyfingerz Joined: Posts: 267Registered
    blufang said:
    He means probably James Chen, i mean this guy has a special relationship with Cammy. The description would fit to him.

    Well not just top level pros, I'm talking about other mid level players and non pro players who may have stuck with her for so long.  As for Akuma he is upper mid in 3s, and UMVC3 and CVS2 are not Street fighter games so they don't count.  SFA2 he was only mid in that, but most people have never even played this game.   



    . Anyway, can we improve the Gadoken just a little? It would make it much better in fireball fights, and for defense. Seriously. A few more active frames, especially in the beginning, would be perfect.
    What about making Gadoken work like Lilith's fireball in Vampire savior.  It is short like Dan's but it is a great pressure tool especially when she has an opponent in the corner.  

    I think because Dan does not need any more pressure tools. If anything, Dan's pressure is top tier. It is nuts. 

    What Dan DOES need are better mid-range normals ( st. MK is his only decent poke. emphasis on decent as it doesn't combo into jack, compare that to cammy's cr. HP) and a better Gadoken because as it stands the fireball is laughably useless.

    Now, I can live without the normals. I get it, Dan is supposed to suck, leave it as it is. 

    But making the Gadoken a little better means I can actually counter a fireball without milimetric precision ( it comes out, has no active frames, then has a couple, then again exists but is absolutely immaterial) , because often fireballs will go THROUGH the final or initia inactivel frames of it, which are like 50% of the damn fireball!

    If it was a little better it could be used a bit more like Ryu's hadoken to punish jump-ins at mid range. I feel that this would make Dan sooo much better without breaking him or fundamentall changing his game at all.

    Now, if only they'd give him his command throw back... but I won't go there. It would toss him ridiculously high in the tiers and essentially break him. Watch what Ixion does with Dan's pressure , the cl. HK frame traps, the l. Danku, and add a command throw there...  :D
Sign In or Register to comment.