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Why is Ken considered better than Ryu?

sphinxsphinx Joined: Posts: 99Registered
I've been wondering, why Ken is considered overall better than Ryu. Other than the fact that he can confirm his Sa3 off multiple normals, does Ryu's damage output compensate? Or will a good Ken always beat a good Ryu? I feel as if Ryu's EX moves in particular can give him a real edge against Ken.

What you think?
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Comments

  • ProverbProverb The Great One Joined: Posts: 181Registered
    Story wise... Ryu is better/stronger than Ken.. but as casual gameplay and tournament rankings show, Ken is far better than Ryu. Ken is the most flexible in every situation in THIS game...it's just how it is...
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  • pheraipherai LIVE FOREVER Joined: Posts: 9,879Registered
    sa3 alone makes a huge difference. Not just because it gives Ken numerous hit confirms Ryu doesn't have, but is a very strong defensive tool when used as a reversal. Can't use DED technique with Ryu either.

    The rest is minor differences. Ken's uppercuts are better, Ryu's ex fireball is better, blah blah. Ryu isn't a bad character but his ex moves, or joudan, or denjin, or all the other stuff he has that Ken doesn't still is not as strong as jinrai. Just being able to do a lot of damage isn't enough on its own. Being able to do damage without exposing yourself to risk is ultimately the most important, and Ken is stronger in that regard.
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  • mpikkonmpikkon Extreme Sports are OP Joined: Posts: 295Registered
    Ken can do cross ups and break guard more efficiently than Ryu, his shoryuken(LP) can be karaed and add more damage to his BnB combos. Plus, his LP shoryuken has high priority and very little recovery time. He is one of the top tiers.His mix up game and hit confirms with sa3 guarantee constistent damage and good rush down game. He used to be known as the anti-Yun character in the good old days when many players had hard time to defend againt the twins(Yun,Yang).
  • ESNESN お前はもう死んでいる Joined: Posts: 1,245Registered
  • pheraipherai LIVE FOREVER Joined: Posts: 9,879Registered
    Jinrai is done with kicks, and ken doesn't have any move with qcf k as the motion, so if the opponent blocks, nothing happens. Since all of Ryu's supers are done with punches, if your opponent blocks your DED attempt with Ryu, you'll still throw out a shoryu or fireball.
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  • jae hoonjae hoon Flames of Justice Joined: Posts: 7,593Registered
    Because Ken has sex with women.
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  • sphinxsphinx Joined: Posts: 99Registered
    . Being able to do damage without exposing yourself to risk is ultimately the most important, and Ken is stronger in that regard.

    Could you elaborate on that please. How does Ken expose himself less if at all? And how does Ryu do it more so?
  • pheraipherai LIVE FOREVER Joined: Posts: 9,879Registered
    Could you elaborate on that please. How does Ken expose himself less if at all? And how does Ryu do it more so?

    Sure.

    Both characters are definitely capable of doing lots of damage. Without meter, Ryu can do more damage than Ken. The problem is the ways Ryu deals big damage are from comboing into tatsumaki, joudan (step kick), shoryu, or super. With some negligible exceptions, Ryu can't hit confirm tatsumaki, joudan, or shoryu, and getting these moves blocked or whiffing them is an easy punish for good damage with pretty much the whole cast. Also, typical punish situations where you would land a joudan or tatsumaki combo with Ryu, you can probably punish with normal into shoryu with Ken for comparable damage. For super, Ryu has like 1/5 the number of options to hit confirm that Ken does. Ken's super does good damage (about the same as Ryu sa1), sets up ambiguous cross ups, has a short stock (much shorter than Ryu sa1 and sa2), and 3 stocks possible(Ryu sa1 has 2, sa2 has 1).

    Not just that, but reversal punishes with Jinrai give Ken guaranteed damage that Ryu doesn't have. It's not easy, but Ken can punish tons of normals on block like shoto low forward, Yun's uoh in geneijin, Urien's stand fierce, the list goes on. It can reversal punish many normals that hit Ken as well, such as Gouki's far fierce. Jinrai has amazing range, and 2 frame start up. You'd be surprised how many normals are punishable on block and hit by Jinrai. The range also makes it strong for whiff punishment, so normals like Hugo's stand strong, which is a very important normal for him, need to be used much more carefully against Ken.

    Denjin Ryu is unique, and the gameplan is much more different than Ken or Ryu sa1/sa2, and its very hard to compare, although Ken is still obviously stronger.
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  • ESNESN お前はもう死んでいる Joined: Posts: 1,245Registered
    Jinrai is done with kicks, and ken doesn't have any move with qcf k as the motion, so if the opponent blocks, nothing happens. Since all of Ryu's supers are done with punches, if your opponent blocks your DED attempt with Ryu, you'll still throw out a shoryu or fireball.
    Never thought of this before. Thx!
  • pheraipherai LIVE FOREVER Joined: Posts: 9,879Registered
    Never thought of this before. Thx!

    Hahaha, I spent a while trying to make it work with Gouki and I don't want anyone else to go through that.

    I could see someone thinking I'm painting an unfair picture here by not listing any of Ryu's advantages over Ken, so to be fair....

    Ryu has a stronger anti air game imo, mainly because of sa1 and sa2, although still not as strong as Gouki's :devil: Along the same lines, resets are more dangerous with Ryu because of sa1 and sa2. I think this is probably Ryu's most significant advantage, and because of this I feel more comfortable with Ryu over Ken against characters like Hugo or sometimes Dud and Necro.

    Ex tatsumaki is safe and is a nice way to beat throw or tech attempts. Plus if you're in the corner you can connect sa1, although its scaled pretty heavily so its not much damage considering how much meter you spent.

    Ex hadou is better than Kens. I don't think you can blue parry first hit of Ryu's ex fireball when its canceled from low forward like Ken's often times can. It's also a safe move that knocks down.

    Ex joudan allows some resets that set up cool ambiguous cross ups.

    Stand rh is a beefy normal, and Ken doesn't have it. Far mk is another good normal Ken doesn't have.

    In general the threat of stun with Ryu is more present than it is with Ken, and I'm not even talking Denjin here. Joudan and tatsumaki do a lot of stun, as does f+mp.

    Has a very useful kara throw. About as significant as his strong anti air game.

    Probably forgetting some other ones, but none of them are as impactful as Jinrai as for Ken. Ken has other advantages over Ryu too. His jump mk is fuckin sick and Ryu doesn't have anything comparable to it. Ken's ex tatsumaki as an escape tool alone imo outclasses Ryu's ex tatsumaki. Also allows for heavy punishment against airborne foes. Kara uppercuts fucking hurt and cost no meter. Target combo gives you a meterless hit confirmable bnb.
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  • sphinxsphinx Joined: Posts: 99Registered
    That's great info thanks alot. However I still don't understand what you mean by Ken not "exposing" himself as much as Ryu? Also, how does the Denjin Ryu gameplan differ?
    Ryu can't hit confirm tatsumaki, joudan, or shoryu...
    Hit confirm these? I am somewhat of an intermediate player, i was under the impression that only supers were hit-confirmable.
  • sphinxsphinx Joined: Posts: 99Registered
    Or have I misunderstood that where as Ken can hit confirm super to get damage from multiple normals, Ryu can only hit confrim from really forward, short and jab to get his super out, and otherwise relies on punishment to land big damage?
  • ShadolooDollShadolooDoll asdaf Joined: Posts: 2,791Registered
    because unlike Ryu, he actually gets laid and has a family.
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  • pheraipherai LIVE FOREVER Joined: Posts: 9,879Registered
    Or have I misunderstood that where as Ken can hit confirm super to get damage from multiple normals, Ryu can only hit confrim from really forward, short and jab to get his super out, and otherwise relies on punishment to land big damage?

    Pretty much. You can hit confirm special moves tho, although for Ryu and Ken they are all situational as far as I know, except Ken's target combo into jab srk/ex hadou/whatever. The situational ones would be like Ken's low short, stand jab, jab srk against cornered opponents.
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  • FACENCFACENC Serious Business Joined: Posts: 1,096Registered
    Ex tatsumaki is safe

    Not completely, Ken and Chun can reversal super it (Chun has to block the last hit standing though, not sure about Ken).
  • munchkinmunchkin Joined: Posts: 247Registered
    Great info. I think Ryu's jumping strong punch is better than Ken's jumping forward kick. Also, what is "DED"? I heard that on the podcast and here. From the context of this thread, I'm betting it's an option select b/t a special move and a super.
  • ESNESN お前はもう死んでいる Joined: Posts: 1,245Registered
    It's kind of an "i don't give a shit" auto option select.
    Basically, when you're near to have your first SA stock full, if you think a clean hit (but not a blocked/parried hit) will add enough bar to get the SA, then you launch the whole thing without trying to confirm, the game will do it itself for you.
  • ColtinaColtina Coltina Joined: Posts: 53Registered
    Because Ken has sex with women.
    This
  • circle mashercircle masher Joined: Posts: 393Registered
    It's kind of an "i don't give a shit" auto option select.
    Hahahaha. Great description.
  • sidewindersidewinder Stiff Arm... Joined: Posts: 440Registered
    I've been wondering, why Ken is considered overall better than Ryu. Other than the fact that he can confirm his Sa3 off multiple normals, does Ryu's damage output compensate? Or will a good Ken always beat a good Ryu? I feel as if Ryu's EX moves in particular can give him a real edge against Ken.

    What you think?

    cuz Ryu is a slightly improved version of Sean, thats why Ken is like 10000 times better than Ryu...:rofl: :rofl: :sleep:
    im not that good , but there's always room for improvement... i think
  • akuaku リアル邪王心眼 Joined: Posts: 3,666Registered
    cuz Ryu is a slightly improved version of Sean, thats why Ken is like 10000 times better than Ryu...:rofl: :rofl: :sleep:

    Aw now that's just harsh. :(
  • Karas13Karas13 Joined: Posts: 275Registered
    Ken is a shoto built like a tank in that he can do huge damage through mixups, but also through his super and back throw he has huge mobility. His super pushes him and his opponent into the corner, his back throw is a roll which pushes him and his opponent across half a screen. It's very easy to get people in the corner, and then his standing medium punch mixups come into play and also his double light punch shoryuken juggle. If you know the setups the opponent is basically guessing, and if they guess wrong youeat 30% of their life bar (even without super in stock). That alone puts him ahead of Ryu, but then there's other stuff such as better hit confirms, better normals, DED, better jumping medium kick crossover, back medium kick overhead link into super and quite a few other things as well.
  • akuaku リアル邪王心眼 Joined: Posts: 3,666Registered
    To make it short and simple: Ryu has plenty of good options that make him a strong and viable character. It's just Ken's options are way better.
  • TebboTebbo Play. Joined: Posts: 3,125Registered
    not even way better.

    ryu has superior AA potential. Ryu has far superior stun potential. Ryu has 3 very viable supers. Ryu has a very useful hadou for pressure, footsie punish, hit confirming, whatever (ex or regular depending on what you're doing with it). ryu has one of the better kara-throws in the game.

    the difference is not that enormous. there is probably a point in overall player progression where ken suddenly seems overwhelmingly dominant. but I don't believe it stays that way. all indications from players who are much better than I am is that the difference is there, but is not as big a deal as people make it out to be.

    also i dont get the tank analogy at all. if either is a tank its ryu. he moves slower and he hits a whole lot harder.
    ken is like a helicopter hovering just outside where you'd like to be, punishing whiffs and nimbly dashing around before hovering some more.
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  • akuaku リアル邪王心眼 Joined: Posts: 3,666Registered
    Which like I said, Ryu has plenty of good options. Some of them are about as good as, or in some regards better than, Ken's. In terms of maneuverability and consistency though, Ken has a big advantage. Ken doesn't do huge damage or stun as easily as Ryu does, but he trades it off with better use of his pokes and better methods of dealing with corners and air-to-air situations.

    If you're talking about the Ken vs Ryu matchup, then it's fairly even, 6-4 Ken's favor at most(which is far from terrible in 3S). When it's Ken or Ryu vs everyone else, the difference is quite obvious and you start feeling Ken's options being more dominant than Ryu's.

    This is just based off my own experiences from playing as Ryu and Ken, as well as playing against Ryu and Ken(as well as Ryu vs Ken, and vice versa). I'm sure Ryu specialists like Flare will say otherwise, but imo Ken >>> Ryu. That's not to say Ryu is bad, obviously. Ken is just way better.
  • TebboTebbo Play. Joined: Posts: 3,125Registered
    yeah i mean i think overall ken has better matchups vs more of the cast than ryu.

    I'd say Ken > Ryu. not Ken >>> Ryu :)

    But honestly it's just a difference in mentality and gameplay. ken has consistency but in 3s consistency is sort of a weird concept since every match basically hangs on a thread and can go either way in an instant for ANY character. how do you even describe oro to someone. "oh he does nothing for 30 seconds and then wins the round when he touches you with cl.mp."

    if someone asked me why ken is considered better than ryu in 3s I would tell them mostly what everyone says though. specifically focusing on sa3 and target combo being awesome. everything is shit compared to ex joudan though.

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  • BroryukenBroryuken 幻影陣 Joined: Posts: 466Registered
    I think super arts in general kinda set the tiers up.. Chun's SA2, Yun's SA3, Ken's SA3, and Dudley's SA3 all set themselves apart. They are quick starting, damaging, and for 3/4 have tiny stocks.
    Not to mention Ken's EX Air Tatsu is like buttah
  • WombleWomble Joined: Posts: 558Registered
    Still, but characters like Makoto, don't even really need their supers to be effective. Ex alone is good enough to scare the crap out of people.
  • TNBTNB Bye. Joined: Posts: 1,172Registered
    because almost everything goes > super

    double shoryu's all the way. damage, meter, combos off everything.

    Seemingly able to hitconfirm everything.

    mp, hp chain.

    sa3= top tier, meter builds easily. sets up position so that you can go back into sa3. or do you high low/throw/ ioh into whatever. this is the main reason, really. meter builds insanely quick due to how short the well, meter is, and every ex costs A CRAPTON LESS than Ryu's ex moves. Also, with meter Every poke that hits could be a super. every knockdown can set up a super setup. The short meter also aids in mind games in addition to everything else. Say I do two crouch shorts. If they block, I can just throw, or do uoh, or do the overhead kick, which has different timing and goes into super. Alternately I can back off and do some other poke into super once they try to press a button.

    The ex tatsumaki in the air is fantastic. You can do some crazy combos off of it and use it to escape.

    I don't think the srk knocks the op as far away. this allows setups.

    He has froward moving standing pokes that have range, like stand hk. He's a more physical fighter overall than Ryu, whose normals are still admittedly based around fireball tactics. Which is really weird.

    His mixup is straight up deadlier due to things like sa3 and his overhead kick.

    Overhead kick seems less punishable than Ryu overhead. Also a grounded overhead unlike uoh.

    Ex shoryu hits 3 times and Hugo has to alternate parry directions.

    He can combo ex shoryu off of of a regular one or an ex tatsu (waste of meter imo).

    Ex tatsu is also a good air>air.

    Ken can sggk with both cmk and chk.

    Ryu has some things that are better than ken's tools. He's still not as good overall though.
    Ryu has a much more usable kara throw imo. Ken's is just bad to me, even with the sggk, the throw doesn't really have any of the added range.
    Every spin of a tatsu builds meter.
    Ryu seems to do a lot more damage in one go than ken, but the tradeoff is that he can't always do this damage consistently. Ken can do a lot of bursts of damage quickly and it costs less meter.
    Unlike shippu, denjin cannot be blocked. Shiipu still = higher tier though. It isn't 2i denjin. Dang 2i denjin is good.
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  • SesshaZLSesshaZL 春麗 豪鬼 Joined: Posts: 909Registered
    I feel like ryu is the middleground between ken and gouki....if that makes sense
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